ANCA and Continuing Churches

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by bwallac2335, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    I don't think building sharing is a norm. There are probably many LCMS churches, particularly in strongholds such as the Plains states, that would not entertain the possibility. What's also interesting is that ACNA rushed into a pact with NALC early in the timeline of both denominations that seems to have been mostly forgotten or ignored. They were much more natural allies than LCMS and ACNA are.
     
  2. Jeffg

    Jeffg Active Member

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    What's also interesting is that ACNA rushed into a pact with NALC early in the timeline of both denominations that seems to have been mostly forgotten or ignored. They were much more natural allies than LCMS and ACNA are.[/QUOTE]

    Interesting that they were in a pact early , if you look at the NALC, they ordain women and it's possible for them to have a female bishop which is a problem for many in th ACNA. The main reason that the NALC was formed was over the debate about gay marraige, which they are opposed to. From what I read, the NALC was formed after the ELCA started to ordain gays in relationships to the clergy around 2009. Not sure how the ACNA views that , as I have seen a lot of post regarding female clergy on this forum, but none about gay clergy, whether they are in a relationship, or celibate/chaste
     
  3. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The LCMS is a bit strict when it comes to ecumenical relations; I expect the experimental relationship between it and the ACNA involved parts of the ACNA that do not ordain women, whereas the NALC is a more natural fit for the others. But really, to reunify traditional Anglicans in the US, the ACNA has got to be persuaded that the lowest office a woman can be ordained to is that of deaconess, and the even more humble burdens of the priesthood and episcopate are reserved for men in sacred scripture.

    I also believe we should emphasize that the Episcopate is the lowliest of offices, in that it involves the most service and the most personal sacrifice. If people stopped perceiving the hierarchy based on Roman Catholic corruptions of the Renaissance era, where being an archbishop entailed living in a palace, that would be very good indeed.
     
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  4. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Many Anglicans seem to have a mythical perspective of the LCMS (this is true of their perception of the Orthodox churches as well). The LCMS, like most denominations, has distinctively different cultures in different parts of the country. I am sure that some of the districts will be ordaining women pastors within the next 20 years or so. Where I live in Coastal Virginia, most of the parishes are experimenting with contemporary worship to some degree. Someone might be able to move to NE, IA, or WY or some such rural place in the heartland and hide out for many years but the LCMS on the coasts is changing rapidly.

    On the issue of female deacons: most of the Continuing churches have an order of deaconess. Now here is where things get complicated and where we have some misunderstanding with our friends in ACNA. Continuing deaconesses are not ordained, they are set apart. This is something equivalent to a tonsure that a monastic would undergo and distinctively different from the service for making a deacon in the Ordinal. Rather than being given a stole and dalmatic, they are typically given a blue dress. This is the visible sign of their office. The deaconess is used in ministry roles that often parallel the functions one finds nuns performing. They do not have a liturgical role in a eucharistic service but may be permitted to say the offices in a public service in the absence of a priest or deacon.

    The REC has had this order for many years and even though some don't like to acknowledge it, their canon concerning the deaconess is prototypical for the continuing churches. Here are some pertinent quotations from REC Canon 22:
    Section 1 The Order of Deaconesses is an ancient and Apostolic lay ministry for women in Christ’s Church. A woman of devout character and proved fitness may be Set Apart as Deaconess by any Bishop of this Church, subject to the provisions contained in this Canon.

    Section 2 The duty of a Deaconess is to assist in the work of the Parish, Mission, or institution to which she has been duly appointed, under the direction of the Rector or Priest in charge; or to perform such functions as may be directly entrusted to her by the Bishop who has jurisdiction in the Diocese or Missionary Diocese in which she serves. In no case shall duties of a Deaconess include the performance of any liturgical function that is reserved to men in Holy Orders.

    Section 6 When all Candidacy requirements have been fulfilled, the Bishop, upon the recommendation of the Standing Committee of the Diocese, or Council of Advice of the Missionary Diocese, may admit the Candidate to the office of Deaconess, using the Form of the Setting Apart of a Deaconess in the Book of Occasional Services of the Reformed Episcopal Church.

    Section 8 When engaged in the duties of her office and on official occasions, a Deaconess shall wear a distinctive dress (habit) adopted for the Order in witness of her office and vocation. A common cross adopted for the Order shall be blessed and presented to her by the Bishop upon the occasion of her Setting Apart.

     
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  5. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    And a pertinent quotation from the REC Rite for setting apart a deaconess:
    ¶ Then shall the Bishop say,
    DECLARE, we pray you, unto those who are here gathered what the office and work of a Deaconess is.

    ¶ Then shall the Priest, addressing the People, say,
    DEARLY beloved, that it is agreeable to the mind of Christ that women should do him service by offices of loving-kindness, we gather from Saint Paul, who saith to the Philippians, “Help those women which laboured with me in the Gospel,” and who also commendeth unto the Romans one Phoebe, a Deaconess of the Church which was at Cenchrea.

    Touching the duty of women set apart to this office and ministry, the Canons of the church affirm that it is to assist the ministry in the care of the poor and sick, in the religious training of the young and others, and in the work of moral reformation. That she may be duly appointed to such service, has this woman come hither.
    The lesson appointed for the service is Romans 12.

     
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  6. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The danger in the LCMS is the Pietist “nice-nice” culture that all Lutheran churches have, which can result in people not objecting vociferously, for example, to contemporary worship. WELS has a bit of an edgier attitude, but lacks the high church liturgical parishes of the LCMS and even regards them with disdain. The LCMS, it should be recalled, was actually the instigator of what became the 1979 Lutheran Book of Worship; it rejected the “Green book” and introduced a modified “Blue book” for its own use only because the former had fully-formed anaphorae vs. the mere sursum corda followed by the words of institution.
     
  7. Jeffg

    Jeffg Active Member

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    Many Anglicans seem to have a mythical perspective of the LCMS The LCMS, like most denominations, has distinctively different cultures in different parts of the country.

    Yeah, Having been brought up Lutheran, there's a saying about the LCMS.."....the further you get from St. Louis..(where they denomination is headquartered)......"

    Wonder how the ACNA would interact with some of the smaller, more conservative Lutherans (WELC, etc). They seem to have the same opinion around at least female clergy..
     
  8. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    They hate each other, as a rule.
     
  9. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    My maternal grandparents were Lutherans. Grandma's family was Lutheran from the time the first missionaries went to Norway. But they were not conservative. They were in one of the synods that fed into ELCA. Female pastors did not bother them, until they were served by a lesbian as they died. They had mixed feelings when I was confirmed in the LCMS in 2011. They were pleased I had joined a Lutheran church but somewhat dismayed it was the Missouri Synod.

    As for the synods that are a couple of steps to the right of Missouri: most of them wouldn't sit at the same table as ACNA folk. The first hang up is all of those groups are obsessed with quia subscription to the Book of Concord. Women clergy and contemporary worship are also total non-starters with those groups (in fairness, I've heard WELS has a faction experimenting with contemporary worship).

    I talk to Bp. Heiser of ELDoNA at least once a month and we had a modest break-through a couple of months back when he and his inner circle realized that we don't view the 39 Articles of Religion the same way they view the Book of Concord. That was a relief for them, since they take issue with several of the Articles for being too 'Reformed.'
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  10. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Active Member

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    How do they view the Book of Concord?
     
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  11. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Quia subscription. The Book of Concord is an accurate presentation of Biblical doctrine.
     
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  12. Jeffg

    Jeffg Active Member

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    They hate each other, as a rule

    Well so much for the Great Commandment....!!!!
     
  13. Jeffg

    Jeffg Active Member

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    I talk to Bp. Heiser of ELDoNA at least once a month and we had a modest break-through a couple of months back when he and his inner circle realized that we don't view the 39 Articles of Religion the same way they view the Book of Concord. That was a relief for them, since they take issue with several of the Articles for being too 'Reformed.'[/QUOTE]

    I looked the the ELDoNA web sight. Interesting. In some ways I can see some areas of commonality with Anglicanism, starting with those who prefer a liturgy as opposed to the post-modern "Rock N Roll Chritianity". Also saw an interesting article regarding Lutheranism and the episcopal form of government :
     

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  14. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    They also have a book through their publishing house, Repristination Press, which has three lectures on Lutheran ideas of Episcopacy and an appendix which contains the consecration service which was used for Bp. Heiser's consecration. Liturgyworks may be interested to know it is an adaptation of the Swedish service. I read the book a month or two ago and it had some good thoughts even though the author devalued apostolic succession. It was his contention that the AS would be nice to have but is not essential to good order in the church.

    [​IMG]
     

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