Allow me to re-introduce myself

Discussion in 'New Members' started by CFLawrence, Jun 15, 2020.

  1. CFLawrence

    CFLawrence Active Member

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    My name is CFLawrence and today I went to auricular confession with a Roman Catholic priest and am once again in communion with Rome. The coronavirus and other world events had a lot to do with my decision. This forum is by far my favourite forum, I will still use my ‘28 APB and read Anglican literature. My Roman Catholicism will be much informed by English Christianity.

    so here I am, home in Rome, again.
     
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  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Active Member

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    What does your priest say about using the 28APB
     
  3. mediaque

    mediaque Active Member

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    I came from the RCC. So I can understand the ease of which you went back. I wish you the best.
     
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  4. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sad. What did Covid have to do with anything?
     
  5. CFLawrence

    CFLawrence Active Member

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    You may not understand but years ago I read a book by Desmond Birch called Trial, Tribulation and Triumph about events leading up to then end of the world, which we are no where near. But when coronavirus hit, and a couple Marian apparitions I couldn’t ignore, like Civitavecchia I came to realize we were in what’s called the Minor Chastisement. The only church I’ve heard talk about this was Rome. And the more I read about the minor chastisement the more I realized the only safe place to be was Rome. I’m just here to say coronavirus is the tip of a huge iceberg. Get your lives in order now while you can.
     
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  6. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Very sad to see someone following superstitions. All marian apparitions were no more real than the apparitions of Vishnu or people seeing ghosts. The human psyche is extremely vulnerable to manipulation, which is why St. Paul said never to trust apparitions, and our Lord has taught us that NO ONE will know when the end of the world is coming. Those who are trying to tell you that, are playing on your superstitions to score a +1 in the Roman column. And none of those 'apparitions' have ever given a prophecy or a future statement that turned out to be true. In fact even the most famous ones such as Fatima contained prophecies which turned out to be manifestly false. I'm sorry friend, I hope you see that you got hoodwinked into a cult before it's too late.
     
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  7. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    No disrespect intended, but my reaction is the exact opposite. I came from the RCC, and I could never return to Romanism. Not even if they held a gun to my head and demanded it (which they have done at times, see http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html ).
     
  8. CFLawrence

    CFLawrence Active Member

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    maybe you’re right Stalwart, maybe I’m getting caught up in a mystique of apparitions and secret messages and come be a part of my exclusive club. Perhaps I should think long and hard and with more clarity!
     
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  9. CFLawrence

    CFLawrence Active Member

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    I think I’m not recalling clearly the reasons I left. Perhaps this decision was purely emotional with no deep thought
     
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  10. mediaque

    mediaque Active Member

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    OK. So now I'm confused. (which isn't difficult for me) I guess I misread your OP. :: shrugs ::
     
  11. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    By outward appearances, Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism look very similar. To outsiders they may appear almost indistinguishable. The ceremonial looks, the accoutrements and the liturgies have much in common.

    But inwardly, they are nothing alike. The two are at odds in some very basic tenets of faith. The means of salvation, the roles and significance of the priests, the nature of the Eucharist, and afterlife beliefs are irreconcilable.
     
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  12. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Active Member

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    Can you elaborate on this?
     
  13. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    And yet they both affirm the Nicene Creed.
     
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  14. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Gladly. Let's begin with a look at that most crucial matter of all, the means of our salvation.

    Article 18 - Obtaining eternal salvation only by the name of Christ
    They also are to be accursed that presume to say that every man shall be saved by the law or sect which he professes, so that he is diligent to frame his life according to that law and the light of nature. For Holy Scripture sets out to us only the name of Jesus Christ, whereby men must be saved.​

    Are you aware that, for centuries the RCC has maintained that there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church? The early Anglicans were acutely aware of this. I have this very statement in a children/youth RC catechism book from which I was taught as a child: "When we say, 'Outside the Church there is no salvation,' we mean that Christ made the Catholic Church a necessary means of salvation and commanded all to enter it...All are obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved" (My Catholic Faith, L.L. Morrow, P.150). It goes on to say, "Whoever, through his own fault, remains outside of the Catholic Church, will be lost eternally." Of course, by "Catholic Church" they always mean the Roman Catholic Church.

    Elsewhere in this catechism, it points out acts (in addition to faith) that one must do to be saved: "Of things we must do are these: we must go to Mass on Sundays and holydays of obligation; we must fast and abstain when our bishops so order; we must receive Holy Communion at least once a year. We must obey the Ten Commandments" (Ibid, P. 145). Moreover on P. 151 it says, "Only those Catholics who live according to the teachings of the Chruch will be saved," and that anyone who knew the (R)CC to be the true church and who left it "will not be saved. He is a willful and malicious unbeliever" (their italics and bold print, not mine).

    On P. 203, it states outright that "Members of Protestant denominations are heretics."

    Compare our Article 18 to this statement from the Council of Trent (still in full force, never retracted):

    CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
    CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

    Now let's look at the official Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church (CCC):

    CCC 2010, "...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."
    CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."
    CCC 2068, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."​


    Practically speaking, the Anglican Church teaches that we are saved only by grace through faith in Christ, "not by works, so that no one can boast" that he had a part to play in earning his own salvation. But the RCC teaches that salvation comes through faith, plus baptism into (and membership into) the RCC in particular, plus obedience to the teachings of the RCC, plus receiving their particular sacrament of Holy Communion, plus being fortunate enough to not die with a serious sin on one's conscience that has not been confessed orally to the priest with concomitant absolution and penance performed. (Trent specifically stated that receiving the Sacraments is necessary to salvation.) That's a lot of supplemental 'works' one must do to be saved, in their view. In fact, they clearly teach that men may merit their own salvation!

    Salvation by grace through faith is a sin in the RC system; as My Catholic Faith states on P. 206, "A person sins by presumption when he trusts that he can be saved...by Gods help without his own efforts." A significant aspect of one's "own efforts" lies in the performance of penance. "The priest gives us a penance after confession, that we may make some atonement to God for our sins... and make some satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to them" (Ibid, P. 330). Additional means of satisfying our own debts of temporal punishment include "(1) Attending Mass, (2) prayer, (3) fasting, (4) alms-giving, (5) the works of mercy, (6) the patient endurance of sufferings, and (7) indulgences" (P. 331). "Indulgences" are time off from Purgatory; for example, making the sign of the cross with holy water is good for 7 years' indulgence, but only 3 years if without holy water; reciting the "Hail, Holy Queen" prayer buys 5 years' indulgence (P. 418-9).

    What does the Anglican Church say? Indulgences are utterly absurd, since there is no place called Purgatory.

    Article 22 - Purgatory
    The Roman [Catholic] doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, worshipping and adoration as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saint, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God.​
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    What of the Eucharist? In the Anglican Church it is a physical reception of the spiritual food of Christ's body and blood. This act is not meant to receive saving grace, but is a mean of receiving sanctifying grace and strengthening of our faith. Of course it also serves as a memorial of Christ sacrificing His mortal life for us, and has deep, beautiful symbolic meaning, in addition to our reception of the Real Presence of Jesus.

    In the RCC, their Holy Communion is a continuation of that sacrifice. Christ is called down from heaven to the sacrificial altar where the one bloody sacrifice on the Cross is continued "in an unbloody manner." The priest becomes in personam Christi as Jesus works a miracle through the priest's mortal hands and turns the bread and wine into the fullness of Christ: "body, soul and divinity." The bread and wine cease to be bread and wine, and become not just the spiritual Presence but also the very divinity and fullness, and the physical flesh and physical blood of Jesus under the "accidens" (mere taste and appearance) of bread and wine. (And yet, the "physical blood" has enough alcohol content to make the priest drunk; go figure.) The RCC teaches that only their own priests are so empowered to carry out this transubstantiation, and by this teaching they impress their members into believing that the RCC must be the one true church; since no other church (Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodox, etc.) can provide this Sacrament reception of which, they say, is necessary unto salvation, the RCC sinks its tenterhooks into its members and makes them fear the loss of their salvation if they should stray to any other church. Thus, the RC adherent comes to trust in his Roman priest for salvation, for only the Roman priest can confect the "true" Sacrament upon which eternal life depends. The RC Mass is described as a "true sacrifice" and a "real sacrifice, for in it a Victim is offered up for the purpose of reconciling man with God" (My Catholic Faith, P. 285).

    What is worse, because the RCC represents the "host" to be the very fullness and completeness of Jesus Christ, the RC faithful are encouraged to worship and adore the round wafers. When placed in a monstrance (the name reminds me of "monstrosity") and elevated by the priest, the RC faithful bow to the wafer and pray to it as God in the flesh on earth. My Catholic Faith says, "We ae bound to render the Holy Eucharist the same adoration and honor due God Himself" (P. 279).

    Is the Mass supposed to be a "sacrifice"? Justin wrote to Trypho that "prayers and the giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well pleasing sacrifices to God." Irenaeus said that the prayers of the saints are "a pure sacrifice" and are an incense offered to God (Against Heresies XVII:6). In Divine Institutes XXV, Lactantius wrote: "Therefore in each case, that which is incorporeal must be offered to God, for He accepts this. His offering is innocence of the soul. His sacrifice is praise and a hymn. For is God is not seen, He ought therefore be worshipped with things that are not seen. Therefore no other religion is true but that which consists of virtue and justice...But let us give Him thanks, and adore Him. For His sacrifice consists only of blessing."


    What did Trent say?

    ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

    CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

    CANON lI.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.

    CANON VI.-If any one saith, that, in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship, even external of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions, according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy church; or, is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored, and that the adorers thereof are idolators; let him be anathema.

    What does the Anglican Article 25 say? ...The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, have they a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves damnation, as S. Paul said.

    What does Article 28 say? ...Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of bread and wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Scripture, but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthrows the nature of a Sacrament, and has given occasion to many superstitions.
    The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the means by which the body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is faith.
    The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.


    What does Article 29 say? The wicked and those who are void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as S. Augustine said) the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ, but rather to their condemnation do eat and drink the sign or sacrament of so great a thing.

    As one can see, Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism are totally in opposition one to another. They are a million miles apart. The RCC uses their Sacraments (Eucharist and Confession in particular) as a membership retention device. The Anglican Church is not manipulative with their Sacraments. The RCC teaches an un-Biblical salvation message of faith in the RCC plus RC Sacraments plus good works and penances; the Anglican Church teaches the message of Jesus Christ who said, "The work of God is to believe in the one He has sent" (i.e., in Jesus). Jesus said that if we would believe in Him, He would give us eternal life. No priest can provide this. No church hierarchy can provide it. No pope can withhold it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  16. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    What is the role of an Anglican priest? An Anglican priest serves the people. He builds up the body of Christ through celebration of the Sacraments, teaching, preaching, and pastoral care.

    What is the role of a Roman Catholic priest? He does (or should do) all of the above. But his most important act is to conduct the Sacrifice of the Mass, in which he acts as "always a mediator between God and man" (My Catholic Faith, P. 257). And he mediates in the confessional, too. But what does the Bible say? For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5).

    For those who wish to peruse the book I've referred to, it is available for free online and for free download: https://archive.org/details/B-001-014-327/page/n259/mode/2up
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  17. CFLawrence

    CFLawrence Active Member

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    That series of posts was amazing! Thank you so much!
     
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  18. CFLawrence

    CFLawrence Active Member

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    Well after reading some outstanding apologetics I took the plunge and went to a local RCC parish today and received communion. I actually feel very, very good about it. I think it was the right choice for me at this time. I’ll be around, I’ve got stuff to talk about still.

    thank you all for contributing to this thread.

    CFL
     
  19. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Not amazing enough, apparently... :unsure: but of course you're welcome. :tiphat:
     
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  20. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Well, given that you’ve admitted about behaving emotionally, and recently also posted a thread about beards being a sin, I’d hazard a guess that you are being guided by non-rational, perhaps even irrational considerations.

    Its a sad fact that the Roman church preys I’m emotionally vulnerable individuals, I’ve seen it directly myself, but there it is.