But we're discussing methodists in an Anglican Context and they aren't Catholics as far as I understand! They are, for whatever reason a schismatic church, they also appear to hold less than the full faith!
You keep failing to answer how a loyal member could not operate under the authority of bishops, ordain others as a mere priest, and attempt to alter Anglican theology. And where I live, and all over the USA, Methodists and Baptists became indistinct non-denominational Protestants, with few claims to holiness that their founders tried to initiate. Regular people indistinct from anyone else. And trying to have a Church of only decent people is a heresy of Donatism. Wesley tried to have a church of only saints, and 200 years later Methodists have as many nominal Christians as anyone else. His attempt failed.
Well, being a conservative missionary to and within the ECUSA, I can't throw many stones in my glass house, but the Sophia worship did originate within their women's conference. They do have a number of charismatic churches which leave traditional Methodist doctrine behind for the most part, and embrace adult baptism only, tongues, and prophetic utterance. While they may embrace some form of Anglican doctrine in the Eucharist, most churches only have "communion" monthly or quarterly. Jeff
One point is that the real question is not about individuals, Wesley or other wise! The point is belief, do the Weslyan's hold to the traditional belief? Most of those I've met don't appear to.Do they have apostolic succession in both Order and Faith? Until these queries are satisfactorily answered, we're wasting time.
Whilst I can admire the zeal and tireless enthusiasm of John Wesley, I have to concur that Methodism is defective in its doctrine and ministry.
Cousin Stalwart; my best friend was an atheist, he was an anarchist in politics, had no religion, wouldn't go in to a Church, at his nieces wedding, I found him sitting outside the church, eating a sandwhich. but I never knew a better man. I wouldn't be keen to go to some place , or paradise, where there were no Tom White's! Our differences with most other non Anglicans is that we have a different attitude regarding the Body of the Church. We have a mystical approach. When the two brothers, James & John, told Christ about a man. getting rid of demons, no less, who was not a member of Christ, or of the Church that is, they wanted to pay the chap a visit, to dampen his enthusiasm somewhat! Christ told them stay,' were I put you, I have others '! In other words it is His business.Not ours, He put us in the Church, His Body and we are told that it is through the Church that people obtain Salvation, we are Christians, members of His Body,we are Christians and followers of Him. He doesn't follow us! This is the major difference between Anglican Catholics and Christian Sectaries.
What good would it do? Look, I believe you are a good-hearted chap, so carry on. I consider you a friend despite our strong differences in some areas, and I hope you consider me the same. I don't detect any ill-will on your part whatsoever; I wish I could say that for everybody here.
I'll reply by having you re-read my post I'll be the first to admit that the ECUSA has problems, but they haven't departed from doctrinal issues of salvation and the Eucharist, as the Methodists, Wesleyan's, and Nazarene's have. My father was a music minister in the Methodist church his entire life, and I'd never even heard of the creeds, 39 articles or the Ecumenical Councils until my catechism class in the Episcopal church. Sadly, the waters have been so diluted and muddied with the divisions and separations, we now have Methodist, Free Methodists, Wesleyan Methodists, Charismatic Methodists, Wesleyan's, Nazarene's, African Methodist Episcopal, and Christian Methodist Episcopal...........all with distinct doctrines, but claiming historic orthodoxy. Jeff
Doctrinal issues of salvation? You wouldn't consider ordination of practicing homosexuals and blessing of same-sex unions to be doctrinal issues of salvation? BTW, the Anglican Communion is just as fractured as the Methodists/Wesleyans, and everything you said about the Methodist groups above could be said about the Anglican ones, as well. And there are just as many Anglican "denominations" as there are Methodist/Wesleyan ones.
Salvation is not granted by a Priest, either straight or gay. Salvation is not given by a church or diocese, but from God. Re-read article 26. Even with the ACNA, REC, ACC and others, there is very little difference in their doctrine, maybe dogma, but not doctrine. Jeff
Within the US there are only two Anglican bodies: the Episcopal Church and the ACNA. Jeff listed 6 Methodist denominations, and I could add 6 more Wesleyan denominations, and all of those 10+ groups have equal legitimacy.
There is quite a bit of doctrinal difference between Anglican Catholics and Anglican Evangelicals, and between liberals and conservatives. Maybe you could explain how you think Methodists, Wesleyans, and Nazarenes have departed from doctrinal issues of salvation. I don't see it. And as far as how salvation relates, to priest, church, and diocese, if these have departed from the faith, then their message of salvation is going to be affected.
#1. Little to none in the doctrine of salvation and sacrament. Doctrine and dogma are two different animals. #2. Again, with 12+ different offshoots, it would be lengthy with each having a different statement on justification, sanctification and eternal security, not to mention the Eucharist. In short though, re-inventing the theology of justification, sanctification and claiming a holy perfection after a second salvific event is pure imagination. #3. Again, please re-read article 26. There is no rating system on sin, and the one which offends you the most is still not grounds for negating the sacrament, because it comes from God. Every Deacon,Priest, Bishop, Archbishop, and even the Roman Pope has sin in their life. Jeff
Celtic1, do you subscribe to Donatism? That is, an unjust or immoral minister is somehow invalid? If so, do you not see the danger? Sin has overtaken the world; "there is not one righteous, no not one". Where one minister advocates homosexuality, another is angry with his brother. Secret sins of the heart are just as much sins as presiding over the marrying of two men is a sin; however, who can know the secrets of every man's sinful heart? Only God. What can we know? Only that every man has sin in his heart. Since every minister is a man, and every man is a sinner, by your logic all ministers are corrupt - and so they must be non-ministers. If a minister of God is made invalid by his immoral life or beliefs, then there are no ministers of God on Earth. I dare say that we cannot trust God to provide even one valid minister. This is the danger of donatism: perfectionism. All have sinned and fallen short of His glory. Everyone is invalid, by your system. Anglicanism has said that the order given to preach & administer the mysteries is in ordination: in the office, in the power, in the calling, and not in the man ordained. We cannot rely on man to uphold his own ministerial validity - we rely on God to minister to His people, even through the wicked. Nebuchudnezzar is a good example, ironically.
I don't know what you're talking about. For the record, I do not agree with Wesleyan doctrines of sin, entire sanctification, and perfection. However, to the point: There is just as much and more doctrinal variation among Anglicans as there is among Wesleyans. The Holiness teaching, for instance, is not absent in the Anglican Communion. The variety of it there came from the Keswick teachings, which inspired the Christian and Missionary Alliance. You want to talk about variance in belief on the sacraments in the Anglican Communion? See what I posted elsewere about the eight differing views on baptism alone. No, there are just as many, if not more, Anglican denominations as there are Wesleyan, and much more doctrinal variance.
That is not my "system"! And sorry, your logic doesn't follow. There is a difference in sin which is not willful, which is recognized as sin, and repented of, and sin which is deliberate, willful, celebrated, and advocated, and clamored for acceptance. Tell me, which sins other than homosexual sins, are being celebrated and blessed? Well, you might add abortion to that very short list. No, I could not serve under or with such an apostate minister or in an apostate church which has accepted and approved such abomination. This is a departure from the faith.