Your thoughts on Augustus Toplady?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Old Christendom, Apr 6, 2013.

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  1. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    Sometimes I don't think we are welcomed here. Many left because of that feeling and lately the forum is being invaded by calvinist who do not like anyone that does not think like them
     
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  2. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    It is not confined to Calvinists, though.
     
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  3. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    That is correct but it revives the same old exclusionist energy.

    The trolling has done what it set out to do, and that was to set members against one another again.

    Do a google search of Internet trolling you will set that that is what has been happening here. That is why I withdrew from those discussions.

    Blessings, Gordon.

    PS... Given Franciscans strive for unity in Christ I find some of these topics quite offensive and very much un Christian.
     
  4. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    My Christian name is Charlie Joe Ray, III. That be a Georgia name.
     
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  5. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    Funny but your comprehensiveness seems to exclude exclusivism:)
     
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  6. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    Or perhaps Franciscan relativism and inclusivism is exclusive of exclusivist theology in Scripture?

    May a Man be saved by any Religion? No; but only by the true, as appeareth by John 17. 3. This is Life Eternal to know thee, and, whom thou hast sent, Jesus Christ: And, he that knoweth not the Son, knoweth not the Father.

    James Ussher. A Body of Divinity (Kindle Locations 1225-1227).​

    XVIII. Of obtaining eternal salvation only by the name of Christ.
    [​IMG]HEY also are to be had accursed that presume to say that every man shall be saved by the law or sect which he professeth, so that he be diligent to frame his life according to that law and the light of nature. For Holy Scripture doth set out to us only the name of Jesus Christ, whereby men must be saved.

    "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. (Acts 4:10 NKJ)
    "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)
    Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6 NKJ)
     
  7. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's really funny, ain't it?

    If exclusivism is included, it ends up being that no one but exclusivists are in, and everyone else is out.
     
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  8. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    Which is really sad in my opinion.
     
  9. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    Well, since you are an exclusivist as well, it looks like everyone that you disagree with is out, including those who are Calvinists. Doesn't that strike you as bit hypocritical?

    Well, it simply means that what's right for you is right for you and what's right for me is wrong for you:) In other words, relativists are inconsistent with their own relativism. It's a nice pretense that fools no one in reality. Mutually exclusive truth claims remain mutually exclusive. So when you "claim" to be inclusivist but reject those who insist that there is a univocal revelation of God's Word, including both moral law and the gospel of grace, then you're being an exclusivist despite your hypocritical denial of the same. I just bring out the best in you. You finally had to admit that you are a dogmatist: no one who actually believes anything is true is allowed:)

    At least I'm honest and up front about what I believe. You pretend to be "comprehensive" and "inclusive" but in reality you are not. Why not just admit it up front instead of all the posturing?

    Evangelicals and Calvinists are not welcome in the Anglican Communion according your narrow-minded exclusivism:) Right?

    May God grant us all His mercy,

    Charlie
     
  10. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    The smugness is on the part of high church Episcopalians. You seem to forget the history behind it all. The Evangelicals were forced out of the Protestant Episcopal Church in 1873 because a certain group of Evangelical Episcopalians dared to share communion and open pulpits with Presbyterians and Baptists in their community. The Reformed Episcopal Church was born out of that controversy.

    And since ACs don't claim to be Protestant but a hybrid between Protestant and Roman Catholic, it's sort of like a mixed breed dog--its not one or the other or anything in between. It's rather like trying to mix oil and water. ACs expect Evangelicals and Protestants to just forget the Anglican Formularies and buy into their blatant revisionism as if it were so. It isn't. So as I said to someone else, that knife cuts both ways.

    See: History: Providence Reformed Episcopal Church

    Charlie
     
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  11. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    Is it? Then why are you an exclusivist?
     
  12. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Active Member

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  13. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    Some folks think using the socratic method is "trolling". Reading into someone else's purpose for posting and labeling it as "trolling" is an indirect way of posting a personal attack or an ad hominem fallacy rather than dealing with the substance and essence of the logical argument being presented. It speaks volumes about the ability of the other side to understand both sides of an issue properly and to respond to it with inductive or deductive evidence that would refute the other side on a rational basis. I believe I have adequately done my job by supporting my position from the Scriptures, the Formularies and the historical background of the English Reformation. If I have at times conflated high church Arminianism with Tractarianism, I apologize--although the high church position has openly admitted that it agrees with the Anglo-Catholic position more than with the Protestant position.

    The way forward in any dialogue is to openly admit your own biases and presuppositions rather than assuming a triumphalistic smugness that you are tolerant and anyone who dares to disagree with you is a "troll", a "Calvinist", an "Evangelical", a "fundamentalist", a "Bible thumper", etc., et. al. I'm sure I could think of other dirty words. Maybe something like "Puritan" or "prayerbook Presbyterian"? Someone in Australia wrote a book about the late D. Broughton Knox posthumously in which his character and his motivations were attacked. He was called a "Puritan".

    If Arminians agree more with the Anglo-Catholic position then it would seem that there is at least some basis for Augustus Toplady's insistence that Archbishop Laud was involved in some sort of Jesuit plot? Also, ACs convert to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy in far greater numbers than Evangelicals, Protestants, or Calvinists do. At least that is my perception of the situation.

    Sincerely in Christ,

    Charlie
     
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  14. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I'm a GA boy myself. Born and bred in briarpatches on the Ga-Fla line.
     
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  15. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    I was born in Baxley, Georgia. My ancestors on my mother's side were Primitive Baptists. On my father's side they were a mix of Methodist Episcopal and Scotch Irish Presbyterians. The Scotch-Irish came to Georgia with Oglethorpe and the Methodists came later.

    Pleased to meet you....

    Peace,

    Charlie
     
  16. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    All my ancestors were horse thieves and sharecroppers....and sometimes both. ;) I'm from the Valdosta area.
     
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  17. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    My maternal grandfather, a Primitive Baptist, was a sharecropper.... He grew tobacco. My mother said she and her brothers and sisters used to plow behind the mules.

    Most of the clay roads are paved now and the bridges don't wash out in flood season anymore. My, how times have changed. I can still remember the outhouses and the hand pumps on the back porch. hehe. We used to help my uncle hang the tobacco in the barn after stringing it on the sticks.

    Unfortunately, there is no Episcopal church or Anglican church anywhere near Baxley. Well, there is one Episcopal church there, but it only meets once a month around 12:00? When I visit if it isn't the right weekend I can't attend there.
     
  18. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Mostly Southern Baptists and Methodists populate my families ranks. My brother is a holiness preacher. Further back, Pennsylvanian Dutch Lutherans.
     
  19. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    In the more rural areas it is very hard to find any Presbyterian or Lutheran churches. There is one Presbyterian church somewhere on the other side of Reidsville in the distant country.

    There are many Pentecostal holiness preachers from the Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee. On my father's side I have an uncle who is a oneness Pentecostal. He thinks all trinitarians are lost. It's a shame. But it only goes to show that Wesley's doctrine of entire sanctification can and did lead to extremes, especially in pentecostalism.

    Peace,

    Charlie
     
  20. Charlie J. Ray

    Charlie J. Ray Active Member

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    The original Lectionary for the 1662 BCP is posted at Linda Howell's website. It covers the whole bible, including the apocrypha, through the whole year if you read every morning and evening prayer service: The 1662 Kalendar.
     
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