Who's per say "saved" ???

Discussion in 'Questions?' started by Jeffg, Oct 22, 2021.

  1. Jeffg

    Jeffg Active Member

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    Hi all.. putting out a question for discussion . There are those Bible verses that encourage evangelism. But what about those people who due to time and location were not able to hear about the Church ? There is the commandment from Christ to spread the Word/evangelize but getting to the whole world can be diffucult.
    My main example would be regardint those people in the New World who lived prior to it's Columbus . If they never heard of Christianity how can they be saved ? The Bible says something about going out and believing and being Baptized to be saved but to those in the New World in the year 1000, they never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and be evangelized . Are they all in limbo or hell ?
     
  2. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    There is no salvation without faith in Christ. God is not obligated to save all people. That's why we should be so thankful that he has saved some of us, although we are all deserving of hell.
     
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  3. Jeffg

    Jeffg Active Member

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    "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son..."... so he didnt' love those in the New world prior to Columbus arriving ??
     
  4. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    God doesn't love all in the same way nor is he required to. God so loved the world, he killed everyone but Noah's family.
     
  5. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't disagree more. Peter said it best when he wrote:
    The core of Semitic/Abrahamic religion is: obey the divine law, and this includes repentance. The Law assumes we will mess up at some point, and makes provision for that:

    Yet you say, “Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?” When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.

    21 But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? 24 But when the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity and do the same abominable things that the wicked do, shall they live? None of the righteous deeds that they have done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which they are guilty and the sin they have committed, they shall die.

    25 Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair? 26 When the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity, they shall die for it; for the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 27 Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life. 28 Because they considered and turned away from all the transgressions that they had committed, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” O house of Israel, are my ways unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair?

    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, all of you according to your ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions; otherwise iniquity will be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord God. Turn, then, and live.

    Ezekiel 18:19-32 (NRSV)

    Combine this with Romans 1:20:
    Thus we have the basic blueprint for all human beings. There is an awareness in every society we know of that things like theft, adultery, lying, murder, etc., are wrong. Obeying these basic injunctions - along with strict avoidance of idolatry - and repentance when one has failed to uphold these laws, is the biblical (and more broadly Abrahamic) answer to what is expected/required of societies who are/were ignorant of divine revelation.
     
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  6. Jeffg

    Jeffg Active Member

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    Thank you Invictus... would love to hear any thoughts you have on my basic question of : What about those in the New World who lived in the year 500AD and could not for obvious historical reasons (unless you have some Mormon insites) who never heard the Gospel ? They in limbo or possibly purgatory (if you believe in purgatory) ...
     
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  7. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    As Peter Lombard puts it, Christ died for all sufficiently, but for the elect efficiently.

    In other words, yes God loves even the reprobate, but he knows ahead of time they will not choose him, so he didn't die for them efficiently to break their will and save them against their will.

    And yes, those in the New world were reprobate (as any history book can attest), just like those in Germany and Helvetia were reprobate prior to the gospel (as any history book can attest).

    God foreknew who would not choose him, so he put them in places around the world (and in the times of history), where he knew they wouldn't be saved anyway.

    That being said, just because we must say they weren't saved, that doesn't mean they weren't actually saved. That's because we are not God, and our statement of so and so isn't actually fact when it pertains to God. We have to say it (because he told us to say it), but he in fact can choose to elect some in the New World, and among the cannibals of Germany and Helvetia. He can show himself to those whom he will know will choose him.
     
  8. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    God shows us, in the Bible, the normal way to be saved. God can choose to save some who sought him with incomplete knowledge through out history but after Christ was resurrected on Earth the only safe way and the only sure way is to follow Christ.
     
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  9. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I have read testimonies regarding some (modern-day, recent) people living in areas without exposure to the Gospel, such as in Muslim nations where the Gospel is forbidden, who say they had a vision in which Jesus appeared to them; as a result these people believed in Him and began to seek for sources of more information about Him (other Christians, Bible). Who is to say whether many others receive a vision and choose to brush it off as nothing? And who is to say whether our Lord might have done the same for some of those early inhabitants of the Americas? Just some thoughts.
     
  10. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    What about the people who lived and died before Christ? What about the people today who never hear the gospel, who only know Christianity as a cultural thing?
    Probably they are judged according to what they do know. If you want a fuller answer I suggest About people who NEVER hear the gospel
     
  11. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I think what I described applies to any individual. Whether such a viewpoint was present within Native American religion itself isn’t something I’m qualified to address. Any individual, anywhere, who was ignorant of the Gospel, yet refused to commit idolatry, and followed the moral law, I would fully expect to have the same destiny as any baptized Christian. I am confident there were some in the New World (pre-1492) who fell into that category.
     
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  12. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    As Australians we understand the irony that the glorious liberty of the Gospel came to our shores accompanied by men in chains.

    I am of the view that Spirit that brooded over the waters ere creation was begun is the same Spirit who moved through the dreamtime of this ancient land. The Spirit that whirled in the deserts of Kadesh, snaked its was through the anthills of Arnhem Land, and whistles in the Gum Leaves.
     
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  13. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    ALL ARE SAVED

    Biblical Support:
    1. All people will see God's salvation (Luke 3:6).
    2. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself (John 12:32).
    3. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive (I Corinthians 15:22).
    4. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11).
    5. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe (I Timothy 4:10).
    6. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people (Titus 2:11).
    7. And, [Christ] having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven (Colossians 1:20).
    8. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
    9. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world (John 12:47).
    10. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-4).
     
  14. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    NOT ALL ARE SAVED

    Biblical Support:

    Matthew 25:31-34,41,46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    John 3:17-18 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Luke 13:24 Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

    Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived...

    Did Jesus bring salvation for all people? Yes, but not all people receive it. Christ's propitiatory/redemptive work is applicable for all, but it is efficacious only for those who have faith. Romans 10:9 says, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. The word "if" is there for a reason: salvation is conditional, not automatic or universal.

    Will all people see God's salvation? Yes, they will see it. Those who don't receive it will get to see it; they will finally have to admit what they denied all their lives (that Jesus is Lord), and they will weep and grind their teeth (Luke 13:28).
     
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  15. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Do you deny any of these propositions:
    1. the existence of Hell,
    2. that people are there,
    3. that they're there everlastingly?

    These are literally binding and authoritative statements from out of Anglican synods, formularies, and prayerbooks. Not to mention countless published treatises.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
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  16. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree that the Bible, including the words of Jesus, says that not everyone will be saved. Hence Universalism, while popular, is fatally flawed.
     
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  17. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I've already answered these questions for you. I don't understand why you want to re-plow the ground. I lost my badge last time though I never disavowed any of the authorities in the formula of subscription, including the Athanasian Creed, when correctly interpreted.