Where does the Anglican church stand regarding Hell.

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by wendy Duckworth, Jul 28, 2020.

  1. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    But do you have a pretty good idea what the author of Revelation 21:4 and Revelation 20:14 thinks? That's what I'd like to know.
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  2. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe in purgatory, which I understand to be a third option according to Roman Catholics. I only believe in heaven and hell. I just believe that the punishments in hell will be "age lasting", not eternal, meaning never ending. Jesus said if we ended up there we wouldn't get out until we had paid the last farthing, but he didn't say we would never get out at all.

    As for Satan's destination, I have no idea. Hell was made for the devil and his angels, I am told. I'll leave that point to God's wisdom and not speculate on matters above my paygrade.

    Given that the last time I spoke openly about Universalism I had to give up my badge, you'll have to forgive me if I am reluctant to go into any more detail. But if you search the forums for the term "Universalism", I've discussed my position on the matter on many occasions.
     
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  3. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Does this mean that you (and John) think that the lake of fire is Hell and is this lake of fire a real physical place, and if so where could it be located?
     
  4. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    To be more precise, I should clarify that "hell" appears to be described in the Bible as the initial location of the deceased transgressors (as "heaven" is for deceased believers). Hell and those who abided within it are moved into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14) after the final judgment. The lake of fire is a place of eternal suffering, Rev 20:10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    The parable of the rich man and Lazarus seems to suggest that hell is an unpleasant location, too. Some people have claimed to have experienced hell briefly in "near-death experiences" and they report having been tormented by demons in an unpleasant locale, but these are anecdotal and cannot be proven.

    As for location, who knows but God? The universe is immense, yet there are indications that it is finite, so what lies beyond the universe? The location of the lake of fire will not be of any consequence.
     
  5. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Could you clarify just a bit further and quote the actual scripture from which you derive this notion that 'heaven is for deceased believers' and hell is for deceased 'transgressors'? I'm assuming Luke 16:19-31 might figure in your reasoning, but I'm intrigued which other specific references are responsible for your certainty. (I have been brought up to believe the same concept but would be interested to see the actual scripture texts the notion is founded upon).

    Has it occurred to you that Rev.20:10 can also be understood to mean that Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet will be tormented indefinitiely. (not even necessarily eternally). It is quite possible, given the nature of Revelation as an extremely figurative book, that Satan is representative of 'The subconscious dark side of human nature in rebellion against God, constantly at war with the spirit', Rom.7:21-25 the Beast is symbolic of the interiority of corrupt rule and dictatorial, tyranical human government, and the False Prophet analogous to all misleading lies and disinformation and those who pervert the truth.

    And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them; and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages. Rev.20:7-10. Youngs Literal Translation

    and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire. Rev.12b-15. Youngs Literal Translation.

    A literal reading of the scripture in Revelation does not specifically reveal a definite statement that the dead from the nations which were being 'lead astray' by the Devil are 'tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages', that fate is specifically awarded to the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet. The dead led astray, not found in the Lambs Book of Life being tormented is an assumption derived from their location in the lake of fire, (if it is a physical reality), not specifically stated in the text itself.

    The question has been asked "Where is this lake". You seem to assume the answer to be ' In the underworld '. But that is where Satan was confined the first time around , and that did not work, he was loosed again after only a thousand years. Rev.20:7. Revelation gives us the answer though if we look for it. : those who worship the Beast "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" Rev.14:10. And where are they? Right before God's throne. The lake of fire bubbles and spews in the very prescence of God! The lake of fire is nothing less than the sea of glass 'mingled with fire' that stands before the throne of God Rev. 4:6, Rev.15:2. Satan and his unredeemed hosts, (possibly figuritive of the dark human subconcious), cannot be indefinitely suppressed or chained, as Paul discovered, Rom.7:21-25. Rev.20:7-10. The Satanic energy, which we struggle with on earth), burns in heaven continually, in a perpetual transformation of evil into light and heavenly passion (fire).

    If Satan is not so much a person , a being, a metaphysical entity, as a function in the divine economy, (Luke 22:31, Matt.4:1-11, 1 Cor.5:1-5, 1 Cor.7:5, 2 Cor.12:7), then the issue is not the inhuman torture of Satan as a person, but the final transformation of our struggle with conscience and our release to serve only God with all internal opposition to God's person refined in the fire before his throne and purged away forever.

    Nevertheless, for the unsophisticated and simple minded heaven as reward and hell as punishment as a notion does have some merit. It is no longer very effective as an incentive or disincentive with materialist intellectuals though.
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    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  6. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The matters of the supernatural which are physical are still not physical in the way that a billiard ball is physical. Our resurrected bodies (see Jesus after the resurrection) are not like normal physical bodies. Heaven is not a physical place like a movie theater.

    The big mistake atheists and skeptics (I was one) make with the reality of the supernatural is that they collapse everything into the physical. That's the error of univocity. The biggest example of that is God himself; he gets angry but not in the way we get angry. We have no idea what he is like, or who he really is; and when we attribute real attributes to him, it is only by analogy. Me being angry, and God being angry, are not the same thing; not even different degrees of the same thing. They're literally incommensurate, and the same word is used for both only by analogy.

    The same applies to free will and predestination; not a problem if we use the doctrine of analogy. And the same applies to heaven and hell, again not a problem if we use the doctrine of analogy.