Was this ok during the Liturgy

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by bwallac2335, Nov 30, 2020.

  1. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Ok so we did the Litany in procession before the service on Sunday to start Advent. It was great. Because we did the Litany we skipped the prayers of the people, the confession and absolution, and the comfortable words. I was not happy about this. I almost skipped communion but the priest said we did the all that during the Litany so I trusted him. I feel like he skipped those parts to keep the service to 75 minutes. I on the other ortherhand would have just preferred the whole service and not worry about the time.
     
  2. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    I'll look at the 2019 rite after a while. My training was that on days when the Litany is said the Prayer for the Whole State/ Prayers of the People is omitted. We do not omit the Confession and Absolution or Comfortable Words (although the rubrics allow the Comfortable Words to be truncated at the minister's discretion).

    Also, Advent 1 is one of the Sundays when the Exhortation should be read publicly.
     
  3. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I noticed this in my rather traditional priest as well. I don't know why they are so concerned about our time.
     
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  4. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    We have never read the exhortation. I think we should. My priest did make sure to tell us that Advent was a time of penance. I am trying to find a way to implement that.
     
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  5. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I come to church to worship. I don't care if we are there two hours or one.
     
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  6. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Why is the solution to reaching whatever arbitrary time limit has been set is to start hacking stuff out of the liturgy? I've asked this of the rector before. If it's really necessary to stay within a time limit, why not cut some music? But that is never what happens.
     
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  7. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I think it's the classic first-world white liberal post-Christian civilization thing. The people are doing such a huge favor to the Church by showing up, that you don't want to inconvenience them. They've got Netflix and Amazon shopping and apps and twitter to catch up with at home, so better get church over with soon.
     
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  8. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    I have been involved with missions and church plants that were using rented facilities and had time constraints. My parish has our own building but if we go over 1:15-1:20 tops one or two of the vestry members will complain the following month. Yes, church people can be so petty as to hold on to a 10 minute overage of their time for an entire month.

    I looked at the 2019 Litany and communion service and there is no formal confession and absolution in the course of the Litany. Lets look at a few pertinent rubrics:
    On truncating the Comfortable Words: The celebrant may say one or more of the following sentences. . .
    On the Exhortation: "The Exhortation is traditionally read on the First Sunday of Advent, the First Sunday in Lent, and Trinity Sunday."

    One other note on the structure of services. Communion of the Sick (2019 ppg. 227-231) is typically the shortest communion service in a prayer book. Even in this short service the Confession and Absolution are included - although with a rubric that makes this element optional (The Minister may say the Confession. . .)
    Overall, I came away somewhat dismayed that the 2019 BCP has retained the bad habit of the 1979 to allow a congregation to largely make a service whatever they want it to be. In my thinking, this undermines the principle of common prayer. I've seen a '79 Rite II service completed in 25 minutes.
     
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  9. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it should be noted that there is a service right after ours from a Korean Presbyterian Service. I know this sounds bad but I look forward to the confession and absolution every Sunday as I feel that I need it.
     
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  10. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I think we can agree that without the confession and absolution being made, then the absolution was not in fact performed, and thus it would be safer to abstain from the Sacrament, lest one incur spiritual risk.
     
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  11. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I probably should have abstained. I remember praying for forgiveness of sins before that but it was really only one specific sin.
     
  12. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I've never understood the unspoken but seemingly-ironclad "never go over an hour" rule in church services either. Maybe they teach that in seminary. Pastors always seem apologetic if a sermon goes on longer than 20 minutes; you can almost see them checking their watches as they go along. (Though I've had Pastors who were so boring they could make even a brief 20-minute sermon seem like an eternity....) You should see the Deacon hustling the people through the Communion line. I sometimes imagine he has a cattle prod to move people along if they dally.

    I've always felt that a church service should be the centerpiece of a Sunday, and as such be as full and engaging as it can be. Give each part of the service its full due. Have fellowship after. Make it something to be enjoyed, not something to be endured.
     
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  13. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    People shouldn't have to feel the pressure of receiving 'with everyone'. It's not a social action, and I feel like there should be social freedom for people to abstain or not depending on interior conditions.
     
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  14. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Was there a confession and absolution at the last supper? Did that pose a risk? (Did Judas receive communion? I haven't worked that out. Has anyone else?).

    I think this worry about communion possibly killing people just because they haven't said sorry to God recently or within the last 20 minutes or so of the service is a load of dangerous and superstitious nonsense.

    Rexlion has given a very good explanation of what the Corinthian text actually means I think.

    Drunks and selfish, greedy gluttons should avoid communion and it would be well if they avoided strong drink in excess and gluttony too, if they don't want to seriously endanger their health and offend the rest of the congregation week by week.

    That in essence it what it really means.
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  15. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    There is no suggestion in the synoptics that Judas left the room, Mark and Matthew report The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me whilst Luke the one who betrays me is with me, and his hand is on the table and in Luke this is specifically after the Institution narrative, which would lead one the the conclusion that Judas was indeed a full participant in the Last Supper.
     
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  16. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I'm a little late to the party, forgive me if I re-tread old ground. But, as far as I can, I am one of the only 2019-BCP-proficient priests on this board.

    What you experienced is not technically permitted in the 2019 Book. It was (mostly?) permitted in 1979, which is what many ACNA priests were formed under, so it is an understandable mistake.

    It's almost permitted, though. There are certain liturgies (like Baptism & Confirmation) where the 2019 BCP indicates that the Prayers & Confession may be omitted and are sort of implied within the contents of the baptismal and confirmation material. It's a weak argument in my opinion, so I keep the confession in. But the fact that it is permitted in those particular cases is of some comfort - we can indeed have a valid Eucharist without a formal absolution in it! It should not be normal (as with typical Roman liturgy), but once in a while won't kill us.

    Still, it is best to do things right. If you have a good relationship with your priest(s), it's worth asking about maintaining the confession even when the Litany is used as the Entrance Rite.

    And, if you want the Exhortation to come back, speak well of it to your priest! In principle, I am much like you: "who cares about service length, this is going to be right and godly and edifying no matter how long it takes!" But I am also prone to fear of the opinions of others, so when I make the occasional shortcut (like cutting the Prayers of the People when the Litany was already said together) it's out of concern for keeping everyone's attention and patience, rather than my own laziness. So you might want to give your priest(s) the benefit of the doubt on this :)
     
  17. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Well-Known Member Anglican

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    John's the only one who mentions when Judas leaves the Supper: "immediately" after receiving the morsel (John 13:30). According to Mark (14:20-22) and Matthew (26:24-25) this identification took place before the Institution. Luke implies a similar remonstration after the Institution, but it's not as clear as the previous two accounts. So, if you accept a straight-forward approach to harmonization, then it looks most likely that Judas was absent at the Sacrament.
     
  18. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Unless we're OCD, then it might! :laugh:
     
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  19. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    The practice might also have the desirable affect of increasing the average American's short attention span by a few minutes. :laugh:
    .
     
  20. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I I cut him a huge amount of slack. No one is perfect and he is my spiritual father. He has done so much for me. We are pressed for time because we share our church with another church. I did not think about that when first making this post.