Was asked "have you ever Thought of becoming a Catholic?"

Discussion in 'Sacraments, Sacred Rites, and Holy Orders' started by David, Oct 1, 2023.

  1. David

    David Member Anglican

    Posts:
    49
    Likes Received:
    20
    Country:
    England
    Religion:
    Anglican
    Was asked yesterday by a Catholic priest if I have ever though of becoming a Catholic...

    He was a lovely priest and his heart and motive was sound however it fully came across that it was as if I may not be considered "saved" in some sense as an Anglican. I replied how can I become what I already am? (Although not exactly as eloquently as that)...had I been as was in my earlier journey of faith this would have really shook me, but as is now i see this as the usual "family argument" in christendom.

    I concured that the CofE is not very ordered and us getting worse it seems but I said they have valid apostolic succession...to which he challenged (of course).

    I spent the entire evening re-researching the topic of anglican orders and found this superb article which I thought ide share here for others...

    https://apologiaanglicana.org/2021/03/31/in-defense-of-anglican-holy-orders-against-rome/

    God bless.
     
  2. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    846
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Church of England
    The priest of course meant Roman Catholic be wouldn't employ the adjective 'Roman' because they think they're the only Catholics.

    Glad to hear you tell him you were already a Catholic.:cheers:
     
  3. Annie Grace

    Annie Grace Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    256
    Likes Received:
    300
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglican (Australia)
    This attitude is actually what most Roman Catholics believe, that there is no salvation outside the RC church. They sometimes pretend to be 'ecumentical' about it all but in their heart of hearts they feel superior to anyone who is not a member of either the Western or Eastern affiliated churches like the Marionites or Chaldeans etc. Anglicans are not considered to be 'real' Catholics and they are also considered to have lost the apostolic succession. so none of the Anglican masses are considered licit.

    This attitude is just one of the reasons I switched from RC to Anglican. It is so exclusionary.
     
    AnglicaninExile, Tiffy, David and 2 others like this.
  4. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    1,209
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican
    I have filed away somewhere in my reams of material an article from the 1970s which decrys, from a traditionalist Roman Catholic perspective, the changes in their own ordination rites. Since the heart of the argument against Anglican orders was a deficiency in the rite, they are equally at fault according to their own logic. The Eastern Catholic churches tend not to take the null and void declaration seriously based on its own reasoning, which some of the more honest ones will point out, as I just did, would condemn the Roman Catholic Church in its current guise.
     
    Br. Thomas, bwallac2335 and David like this.
  5. David

    David Member Anglican

    Posts:
    49
    Likes Received:
    20
    Country:
    England
    Religion:
    Anglican
  6. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    846
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Church of England
    I doubt the RC Church will open its sacraments to non-Catholics any time soon.
     
    David likes this.
  7. Rami

    Rami Member Anglican

    Posts:
    47
    Likes Received:
    25
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Anglican
    If I had been asked this question, it is the infallible somone-who-is-not-God, and confession for 7 year olds that I would have required the "lovely priest" to explain.
     
  8. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    846
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Church of England
    Seven year olds do not have to go to confession. They can go after a course of catechesis. By that age children can distinguish right from wrong.
     
  9. Rami

    Rami Member Anglican

    Posts:
    47
    Likes Received:
    25
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Anglican
    I am under the impression that First Communion requires confession beforehand. I will stand corrected if need be, and I apologise in advance if so.
     
  10. Annie Grace

    Annie Grace Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    256
    Likes Received:
    300
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglican (Australia)
    You are correct in that RC children have to go to confession prior to first Communion. My daughter went to a RC school and she had to do a preparation course for first Holy Communion and to practice receiving the Eucharist and wine. It was good that they had a rehearsal in class (with unconsecrated hosts and wine) because after the first sip of wine, she made a grimacing face - lol. Her teacher told her that she mustn't do that at the real thing, so she was fine at the second rehearsal - she just hadn't ever had alcohol before and it was a bit of a shock to her taste buds.

    Then the whole class (and parents if they wanted it) had Confession in the church. There were chairs scattered around the church and about half a dozen or so priests available. When a chair became empty, the next person in line went to sit there for Confession (Reconciliation these days). Because everyone was scattered around a large church, it was still private. The priest guided the kids through the process, but it was their first valid Confession.

    I am of the opinion that the whole thing is done way too early. I don't believe many children have actually committed a 'mortal' sin, which requires 3 things:
    • It must be of a grave matter;
    • It must be committed with full knowledge that it is a mortal sin;
    • It must be committed with full consent.
    Venial sins are not required to be confessed but committing a mortal sin isn't as easy as it sounds, so what is happening is that at a very young age, people are taught to focus on sin rather than grace or mercy. They often struggle to 'think up' a sin for Confession and it is usually something very petty and small and is sometimes based on thoughts rather than real deeds. But thoughts aren't mortal sins.

    Then a year or so my daughter was Confirmed by the Bishop with a pretend slap across the face (rather than a laying on of hands like I experienced when I became an Anglican). I just find the whole RC experience to be a confusing one for children and if I had to do it over again, and know what I know now, well ... hindsight is 20/20.
     
    Rami, Tiffy and Br. Thomas like this.
  11. Rami

    Rami Member Anglican

    Posts:
    47
    Likes Received:
    25
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Anglican
    This is true for us all.
     
  12. Rami

    Rami Member Anglican

    Posts:
    47
    Likes Received:
    25
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Anglican
    Thank you for sharing your experience. Is pretending to slap children the usual means of Confirmation in the RC Church?
     
  13. Annie Grace

    Annie Grace Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    256
    Likes Received:
    300
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglican (Australia)
    I have to admit that I don't know why the Bishop 'slaps' them instead of laying on hands. I was surpised as this hadn't been my experience of Confirmation. I was baptised and confirmed and received first holy communion all at the same Christmas midnight mass by a Monsignor in the USA back in 1977. The baptism was done in front of everyone as part of the Mass but I do remember some things being done in the sacristy with the priest such as annointing and answering the questions about rejecting Satan etc. Because it was so long ago, I just can't remember it all but I am pretty sure he laid hands on my head and didn't slap me. But the Monsignor who did it all was pretty laid back about most things so I am sure I can't judge my experience as the norm.
     
  14. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    846
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Church of England
    You made a generic statement. There was no reference to this being a requirement prior to First Communion. No one in the RC Church is obliged to go to confession if they have no sins to confess.
     
  15. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    846
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Church of England
    I wasn't there and didn't witness what you saw. However, confirmation requires laying on of hands. I've no idea why the bishop would pretend to slap or what that would achieve. In fairness, he's the only one to whom the question could be put as to why it was done.
     
  16. Clayton

    Clayton Active Member

    Posts:
    178
    Likes Received:
    108
    Country:
    United States
    I was not raised a Catholic; I converted at 19, so I didn’t have this kind of experience. Now, my kids are both in the local parish school.

    I confess that I am not very comfortable with the idea that the school will guide them through first communion and confirmation. I sense that the kids go through it as they would any other school function, like a field trip. Everyone does it because, well, everyone is doing it.

    I would much rather my kids be confirmed when they are actually called to it.
     
  17. Clayton

    Clayton Active Member

    Posts:
    178
    Likes Received:
    108
    Country:
    United States
    “The slap was removed from the reformed ceremony in 1971, although it seems that it is sometimes still done in the Ordinary Form. Being slapped on the cheek might seem an odd way to symbolize a willingness to suffer, and there is of course more to it than that. The blow on the cheek after the anointing appears in liturgical books in the Middle Ages, and is a liturgical version of the ‘colée’, the blow on the cheek given to new knights in many versions of the knighting ceremony.”

    https://lms.org.uk/massofagesarticle/confirmation-slap
     
  18. Clayton

    Clayton Active Member

    Posts:
    178
    Likes Received:
    108
    Country:
    United States
    My first thought is that I agree. But in fairness, there is one point in which it may be a good idea to have first confession earlier rather than later.

    Waiting until one is conscious — and burdened — by awareness of a mortal sin could be the less desirable option, since you compound two awkward things rather than just the one. Better maybe to become comfortable with the confessional now, than to put it off and maybe risk not going at all once the need for it is really pressing.
     
  19. Annie Grace

    Annie Grace Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    256
    Likes Received:
    300
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglican (Australia)
    I don't think they should ever become comfortable with the confessional because in my opinion there is just way too much emphasis put on sins in the RCC. That's one of the reasons I switched to Anglicanism.

    And as for waiting a long time before doing it - well perhaps they should just delay the whole baptism thing then, because once a person is baptised, they are cleaned of all sin! St Augustine waited for this very reason.

    As to whether or not children have to go to confession before first communion, well, all I can say is that if they attend a RC school, then they pretty much have to do it to fit in with all their classmates because it is part of the training and preparation for HC.

    As for me, I believe it is enough to confess at weekly Mass during the service, and be absolved then. But then I am not a person who goes around committing mortal sins, so perhaps that is just me. I imagine if I had done something that met all three criteria for a mortal sin then I might want to seek out a priest for an individual confession, but until that happens . . .
     
    Br. Thomas likes this.
  20. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    846
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Religion:
    Church of England
    How would they know they were ready for it?

    I don't like the Western practice of separating baptism, confirmation and communion. I prefer the Eastern Christian practice of administering all three sacraments of initiation in infancy.