Thoughts on Crucifixes

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by bwallac2335, Feb 13, 2022.

  1. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, thank you for clearly demonstrating the problems I alluded to in terms of imposing a narrow exegesis (or perhaps eisegesis) on the apocalyptic texts.

    Vicarivs Filii Dei-5-1-100-1-5-1-50-1-1-500-1 is first mentioned in the fraudulent document - The Donation of Constantine - and it is very difficult to ascribe any credibility when it is based on a fraudulent document.

    You assert as fact that the woman is to be equated with the Roman Catholic Church. This assertion seems to have no foundation in scripture or scholarship. The Roman Catholic Church as a particular entity probably has no intelligible meaning prior to July 16, 1054. This would seem to be some 900 years after the writing of the book of Revelation, so cannot be asserted as being the intent of the writing.

    Vatican City has no hills, Rome of course is described as the city of seven hills. ...

    Now I am an Anglican, and I am not a Roman Catholic, and I am not an Anglo-Papist, and I am not an Anglo-Catholic. I achieve nothing for the Kingdom of God by engaging in this sort of pseudo-exegesis of this very narrow specific genre (apocalyptic) texts. Quite simply, this is not the way Anglicans in the main understand these texts.
     
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  2. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    The Donation of Constantine was a document of great importance in the Middle Ages. It was used by the Church to support its claim of supreme rule over even earthly powers. No surprise.
    https://churchages.net/en/study/mar...n-the-place-of-the-son-of-god-666-false-claim
    upload_2022-10-5_0-26-48.png

    The former Church of the Lord developed by the Apostles in Rome, as is written in the book to the Romans and Acts of Apostles, it by complete APOSTATIZED and came to be the cradle, the birthplace, of Antichrist. John, the Apostle, wrote about the apostasy of the former Church of the Lord in Rome-1John 2:v.18-21. - The Antichrist was born from the church - see how | Friends Of Jesus (proboards.com)

    Brother, You should re-study what you wrote above. Remember: The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy, do you agree? The book of Revelation was written around AD95 or 65 years after the ascension of our Lord JESUS. What does our Lord JESUS said? Revelation 1:v.1 - 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John: (and to us too, sure). From the chapter 6 ahead the respective content of each chapter must still be fulfilled, understand? Check it.

    Well, not by myself, but wikipedia.org has the answer and is a good source among others for you to check your assertion. The seven hills of Vatican City(Rome) are:
    Aventine Hill
    Capitoline Hill
    Esquiline Hill
    Janiculum Hill
    Palatine Hill
    Quirinal Hill
    Viminal Hill

    James 5:v.19-20
    19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
     
  3. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    It would seem, Oseas, by your quoting of this text, that you are thinking that those who do not accept your imaginative interpretation of some apocalyptic writing, (which incidentally, narrowly escaped not being even included in the canon of scripture), you think they 'sinfully err from the truth'. I would suggest to you that the truth referred to in James 5:v.19-20 is the truth of the gospel. NOT the possibly imagined 'truth' of your particular preferences, in the possible interpretations of certain passages in The Book of Revelation.

    Could it be time for you to listen to advice from your Anglican Brethren and refrain somewhat from teaching others things that you might not have a full understanding of.

    Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. James 3:v.1-2.
    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022
  4. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

    The Donation of Constantine (Latin: Donatio Constantini) is a forged Roman imperial decree by which the 4th-century emperor Constantine the Great supposedly transferred authority over Rome and the western part of the Roman Empire to the Pope. Composed probably in the 8th century, it was used, especially in the 13th century, in support of claims of political authority by the papacy. In many of the existing manuscripts (handwritten copies of the document), including the oldest one, the document bears the title Constitutum domini Constantini imperatoris. The Donation of Constantine was included in the 9th-century collection Pseudo-Isidorean Decretals.

    Lorenzo Valla, an Italian Catholic priest and Renaissance humanist, is credited with first exposing the forgery with solid philological arguments in 1439–1440, although the document's authenticity had been repeatedly contested since 1001.​
     
  5. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Dear Tiffy, believe me, honestly I haven't thought and I'm not thinking what you think I'm supposedly thinking, O no, not at all. My exchange of messages with my brothers in Christ it has nothing to do with evil thinkings or evil conceptions as you said. You're mistaken, in the light you wouldn't say that untruth.

    Yes, the Truth referred to in James 5:v.19-20 it is indesputable, it's the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD- , GOD is the Truth.
    What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD. What I learned by the Word of GOD is that " If we receive the witness of men, the witness of GOD is greater: ... He that believeth on the Son of GOD hath the witness in himself: 1John 5:v.9-10. Do you believe?

    You, brother, just looked and misinterpreted and sought to distort the message posted instead of bringing your interpretation to confront the content of my message.

    But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him. But GOD hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of GOD.
    For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of GOD knoweth no man, but the Spirit of GOD - 1Corinthians 2:v.9-11.
     
  6. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    I think that the Catholic priests are suspects when they try to misrepresent the document's authenticity. Their Church, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon ten horns ten crowns, and upon seven heads the name of blasphemy, yeah, their church is linked to the body of the great red Dragon-Revelation 12:v.3-4&9-10:

    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4 And his TAIL drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: ...
    9 And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him.
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our GOD, and the Power of His Christ:

    Remember that the false messiah, the man of sin, son of perdition, a former cherub-John 5:v.43-47 and 2 Thess.2:v.3, and Revelation 13:v.11, will make a deal with the Pope to establish a religious satanic and Universal kingdom-Judaism and Catholicism-clay and iron, in the last week Daniel 9:v.27 , in this time of the end. The fullness of the Gentiles has just arrived, understand? And what will happen first?

    What will happen first is the fulfillment of Revelation 11:v.2 - as was revealed by our Lord JESUS: "The Court which is WITHOUT the temple ...it is (will be) given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months-1260 days-Revelation 11:v.2 (it is the first half of the last week Daniel 9:v.27).
    And what will the false messiah do in the beginning of the first half of the last week? Revelation 13:v.2 reveals: The false messiah will give to the Pope his Power, and his Throne (in Jerusalem) , and great Authority, yeah, the Pope will sit on the Throne of the false messiah in Jerusalem for 42 months. But wait: I am speaking of the next Pope who will be elected as soon Francis die, maybe his nickNAME will be Paulus VII, and he will be the last.

    It's that.
     
  7. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    They certainly did misrepresent the document as authentic, in order to advance their control over lands on the Italian Peninsula and to advance their side of the argument with the Byzantines. It is a great credit to the integrity of some of their scholars that they could own up to the fraudulent nature of the document.
    This claim is without substance or weight and simply amounts to anti-catholic rhetoric and propaganda. My view is that there is no place for commentary in forums of integrity, with due deference to the weight of the tradition of faith and scholarship that the traditional Anglican perspective honours.

    Jesus Speaks about His Death
    ‘Now my soul is troubled. And what should I say—“Father, save me from this hour”? No, it is for this reason that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.’ Then a voice came from heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.’ The crowd standing there heard it and said that it was thunder. Others said, ‘An angel has spoken to him.’ Jesus answered, ‘This voice has come for your sake, not for mine. Now is the judgement of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’ He said this to indicate the kind of death he was to die. The crowd answered him, ‘We have heard from the law that the Messiah remains for ever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?’ Jesus said to them, ‘The light is with you for a little longer. Walk while you have the light, so that the darkness may not overtake you. If you walk in the darkness, you do not know where you are going. While you have the light, believe in the light, so that you may become children of light.’
    John 12.27-36
     
  8. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Anyway, the religious leaders and guides were dominated or even possessed by the spirit of Devil in all their works. Now they will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire as prophesied Daniel: Daniel 12:v.3. Check it.
    Remember: The Word is GOD. The Word of GOD is self-executing because is GOD, do you understand? Is it written in the Word of GOD? Be sure, this will be LITERALLY fulfilled, there is nothing to prevent fulfillment.

    According you above said, your thinking is from a human perspective, not from GOD's perspective.
    Revelation 18:v.1-5 and 8-10
    1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and GOD hath remembered her iniquities.
    8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord GOD who judgeth her.

    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
    10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy Judgment come.

    Remember: The Word is GOD. The Word of GOD is self-executing because is GOD, do you understand? Is it written in the Word of GOD? Be sure, this will be LITERALLY fulfilled, there is nothing to prevent fulfillment.


    JESUS said: Revelation 11:v.15-18
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,

    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

    18 And the nations were(will be)angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
     
  9. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    As an English speaker, I find this sentence appallingly difficult to understand. In reality, I don't know what it is supposed to mean. You have delivered it in various forms, so clearly it means something to you.

    Remember:
    I remember you have posted like this before, however the repetition has provided little in the way of illumination.

    The Word is God.
    I presume this is a re-enforcement of the statement made in John 1:1. This is plainly accepted by any orthodox nicene christian.

    The Word of God is self-executing because is God, do you understand?
    I don't know what this statement means. I presume that you mean me to understand 'the word of God' as being the Bible, however what follows is hard to understand, for an English speaker, and seems to suggest that the Bible and God are one and the same thing. That is not something I would understand, and more properly would reject outright.

    Is it written in the Word of God?
    Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. (Article 6). The question comes down to the difference between inspiration and espriration.

    Be sure, this will be literally fulfilled, there is nothing to prevent fulfilment.
    It seems the intent of this sentence is to qualify what has been said, however it is difficult to understand how this could qualify that which has preceeded it.

    That this is a response to something I said in relation to the fraudulent nature of the Donation of Constantine, and yet it seems entirely disconnected from that matter altogether.
     
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  10. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    It would seem that the 'message' is not getting through because the words expressing it are indistinct. Perhaps in the native language of the author the meaning would be more clear.

    My guess though is that the intention is to imply that what is written in every post as direct quotations from The Holy Book, in support of various assertions and opinions of the poster, constitute the very WORDS of Almighty God, as if spoken in the hearing of the reader, by God Almighty, in heaven itself.

    I am increasingly concerned that that may constitute a form of idolatry similar to the way Islamists regard what is written in the Muslim 'Holy Book'. Irrefutable, absolute and final. This effectively elevates the book and the words, to the position of a god, thus requiring complete, unquestioning obedience to the dictates of the interpreter of the text. Islamists apply this principle to certain passages of the Koran in support of their own wicked intentions and objectives.

    This approach to the interpretation of the meaning of holy scriptures is very dangerous and therefore very wicked.
    .
     
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  11. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    The Word is GOD-John 1:v.1:
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD. (The Word is from everlasting to everlasting)

    The Word is GOD. The Word was made flesh, right? John 1:v.14
    14 And the Word was made flesh(How?), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten(JESUS) of the Father(of the Word,) full of grace and Truth.

    The Word made flesh made all things.John 1:v.3
    3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
    The Word made flesh is He who made all things, even the worlds-Hebrews 1:v.1-4 and 7-8. (The Word made flesh is also GOD)

    The Word was made flesh. (How? in what way?)
    The messianic prophet Isaiah was one of the Old Testament writers who prophesied in Judah between the 8th and 7th centuries BC. Isaiah wrote the most extensive prophetic book in the Bible. The name Isaiah means "the Lord is salvation" from the Hebrew Yesha'yahu. The Word came to Isaiah, and he prophesied saying:
    Isaiah 7:v.14 -
    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (which means GOD with us). Well, the Word is self-executing, because the Word is GOD, the invisible GOD, understand?

    Yeah, the Word of GOD is self-executing because the Word is GOD, do you understand? Is it written in the Word of GOD? It will happen, IT WILL MATERIALIZE, as the verses that was above quoted, it is Power, understand? Be sure that what GOD says, this fulfill literally, there is nothing to prevent fulfilment because de Word is GOD, the invisible GOD.

    The birth of JESUS from a virgin-the Word made flesh- this is one of the most deep misteries of the written Word, because this impossible event was spoken by Isaiah and the Word was fulfilled, I mean it was materialized, and the IMPOSSIBLE happened after eight centuries, because the Word is GOD, it is self-executing, do you really understand the Power, the mystery of GOD? GOD is Spirit, understand? The Word-GOD- is from everlastging to everlasting.

    Well, what was above posted is a hard attempt to describe about the invisible Person of GOD, as we can see and know ONLY through JESUS, as He said:
    No MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him - Matthew 11:v.27. Hallelujaaaah!!!
    https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/the-word-is-god-great-mystery.2494/