Thoughts on Crucifixes

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by bwallac2335, Feb 13, 2022.

  1. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know the Devil was a former Cherub, what references can you refer me to, to confirm this?
     
  2. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    It's a reference to Ezekiel 28:14, which is actually not about Satan but about the king of Tyre. The only mentions of Satan in the Old Testament/Tanakh that I know of are Job 1-2 and Zechariah 3:1-2. Judaism has never worked these brief accounts into any kind of account of an omnimalevolent being, and traditionally has disavowed the concept. Rabbinic Judaism has tended to see Satan as a personification of the 'evil inclination' inherent in the human will, and it seems plausible to me that the Temptation accounts in the Synoptic Gospels could possibly be read this way as well.
     
  3. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Well it will be interesting to see what Oseas comes up with. I agree it is about the King of Tyre, but why the reference to him being in Eden the garden of God and why was he (past tense) anointed as a Cherub? I would have thought you can't be a cherub and later the King of Tyre.
     
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  4. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    The imagery is from an old Near Eastern myth. The point is basically along the lines of, “How the mighty have fallen!” A good commentary, like Hermeneia, or the International Critical Commentary, will provide all the details regarding the mythology itself. For example, Tyre was said according to legend to have been built on “the mountain of god”.
     
  5. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I think the actual reference was to the guardian cherubs with flaming swords who were placed at the gates of Eden after the Fall (Gen. 3:24). The meaning is that the King of Tyre was also meant to be a divinely-appointed guardian, as expressed earlier in Ezek. 28:13. It's a callback to the Fall of Adam and Eve.
     
  6. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I realise now Oseas that I have been unfair to you in my rather flippant treatment of your contribution to this thread. Welcome to Anglican Forums, by the way.

    Although I disagree with your conclusions regarding crosses and crucifixes, I do recognise that there is an element of truth in the case you are putting forward. In addition to that, I recognise you are stating your truth in another than your native tongue, so we should be willing to make allowances for that.

    The cross itself is indeed, as you say, a curse, a brutal method of execution deliberately devised by cruelly deranged human beings to inflict the maximum possible pain and prolong an agonising death to further the interests of a psychopathically murderous predatory state, the Roman Empire. It was intended by them to intimidate local populations of conquered Nations into servitude and submissive acquiescence. As such it is metaphorically 'Demonically' inspired and a hideous curse of a thing. That much you do have right.

    One has to ask though, WHY in God's name, should Christians want to decorate their churches with such a repulsive symbol of torture or even decorate their crosses made of silver, gold etc. and sometimes studded with precious jewels, and turn them into objects of art to be admired, coveted, even by some misguided individuals, 'worshipped'.

    If Jesus had been boiled to death in oil would we have beautified, precious metal, caldrons decorating our churches? Had he been shot to death like Ghandi would we see jewel encrusted revolvers over every pulpit and preaching place in our churches? Had he been stoned to death would we have highly polished and decorative rocks in places of honour in our churches? The whole idea of glorifying a means of torture seems bizarre in the extreme.

    The fact is though that crucifixes and crosses are NOT just 'Decoration' or 'Art', they are primarily Symbols and Signs. They are SIGN heavy with irony, they sarcastically scream at the devil, "Was this the WORST you could do, you LOSER"?

    They visually portray the worst thing the human race has ever done, A worst thing that any and every one of us is potentially capable of, if we choose to ignore the spark of love, along with the faint image of God that still yet remains, in even the most inhuman of us.

    They are a reminder to us of what SIN really is and how LOVE overcame it.

    The cross is the ironic symbol of the graceously unwarranted EXTENT of God's forgiveness of the sin of HUMAN IGNORANCE.

    Here are two Hymns that Anglicans love to sing.
    If you want to join us you'll have to get used to them.

    When I survey the wondrous cross
    on which the Prince of Glory died,
    my richest gain I count but loss,
    and pour contempt on all my pride.

    Forbid it Lord, that I should boast,
    save in the death of Christ my God:
    all the vain things that charm me most,
    I sacrifice them to his blood.

    See from his head, his hands, his feet,
    sorrow and love flow mingling down:
    dis e're such love and sorrow meet,
    or thorns compose so rich a crown?

    Were the whole realm of nature mine,
    that were an offering far too small;
    love so amazing, so divine,
    demands my soul, my life, my all.

    Chorus
    Lift high the cross, the love of Christ proclaim
    Till all the world adores his sacred name!


    Come Christians follow, where the captain trod,
    the King victorious, Christ, the Son of God.
    Lift high the cross . . .

    Each new born soldier of the crucified
    bears on his brow the seal of him who died.
    Lift high the cross . . .

    This is the sign that Satans armies fear
    and angels veil their faces to revere.
    Lift high the cross . . .

    Saved by the cross on which their Lord was slain,
    see Adam's children their lost home regain.
    Lift high the cross . . .

    From north and South, from east and west they raise
    in growing unison their song of praise.
    Lift high the cross . . .

    Let every race and language tell
    of Him who saves our souls from death and hell.
    Lift high the cross . . .

    O Lord, once lifted, on the tree of pain,
    draw all the world to seek you once again.
    Lift high the cross . . .

    Set up your throne, that earth's despair may cease
    beneath the shadow of your healing peace.
    Lift high the cross . . .
     
  7. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Because I told you the Truth an evil spirit possessed you to mock of the Holy Spsirit, what the evil spirit said through you is not an argument but an evasive manifestation.
    What does the Word of GOD say?
    We can do nothing against the Truth, but for the Truth. Now, the Word of GOD is Truth, the Word is GOD, do you understand?
    JESUS made it very very clear, saying: Matthew 11:v.27
    No MAN knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any MAN the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.

    You have heard to speak of JESUS through the idolater and false Christianity developed by Satan since the beginning by the apostate church of Rome, the RCC, the Great Whore, which rides upon the Gentile Beast of sea, the Papacy, (sea=waters=peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues-Revelation 17:v.15).

    That said, you don't know JESUS yet, except the satanic crucifix made by the Devil on an industrial scale, around which a legion of spirits of demons move themselves, and they possess the worshipers of the devilish crucifix trapping them in the blackness of the darkness.

    Ephesians 5:v.11-16
    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

    13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

    14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

    16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

    Be careful and get ready

    Revelation 21:v.8
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and IDOLATERS, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
  8. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Ezekiel 28:v.14-15

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
     
  9. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    And now, the MAN of sin, son of perdition, he will mnifest himself as God.

    2 Thessalonians 2:v.3-4 an 9-12

    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day (the last Day, the Lord's Day) shall not come, except there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who (will) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God (will) sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Post Script

    In fact, the MAN of sin will manifest himself as a messiah, a false messiah, a false lamb, of course, as is written in Revelation 13:v.11-13:
    11 - I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    12 And he exerciseth all the power of the FIRST Beast(Beast of sea) before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

    In fact, the MAN of sin, manifesting himself as a lamb, a false lamb, what I can say is that he is/will be an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist messiah, and will be the main ruler of Israel, and th main guide of the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist JUDAISM.

    Let us be prepared
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
  10. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like antisemitic garbage.

    Anglicans are traditionally amillennialist anyway; we don’t take apocalyptic passages literally.

    I’m a lot more concerned about global warming, supply chain issues affecting our food supply, a potential nuclear standoff with Russia, and the prospect of my country turning into a fascist pariah, than I am about any alleged “antichrists”.
     
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  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    The prophets of old were perfectly capable of being sarcastic when adressing Kings that were too big for their boots or thought themselves 'Divine' and needed taking down a peg or two.
    .
     
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  12. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    What matters are the things which will really happen, since from now until the END of the Devil's World.

    Revelation 11:v.15-18
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying: The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (Devil's world) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

    18 And the nations were angry, and GOD's wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto HIS servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH. (This prophecy is already fulfilling LITERALLY.)

    Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(ISRAEL) and of the sea(GENTILE PEOPLES / NATIONS)! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    https://purebibleforum.com/index.php?threads/three-unclean-spirits-like-frogs-why-frogs.2438/

    Get ready
     
  13. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Yes but as others have pointed out doesn't the "Thou" refer to the King of Tyre and not the Devil?
     
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  14. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear; I suspect you might be one of those " Pull your socks up now because the end of the world is extremely close" sort of people.
    This forum has been mercifully free of this sort of thing. The closest I have seen in this genre on this forum is someone (Rexlion I think but forgive me if I'm wrong) suggesting it might be 30ish years (from memory) away.
     
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  15. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Luke 20:v.35-36
    35 But they which shall be accounted WORTHY to reach that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.


    Two thousand years ag, in the beginning ot the fifth Day, Peter Apostle warned the GOD's peole, prophesying: 2 Peter 3:v.7 to 12

    7 But the heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same Word are kept in store(the Word is GOD), reserved unto FIRE (GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE) against the Day of Judgment (the Lord's Day) and perdition of ungodly MEN.

    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day. Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar? | Pure Bible Forum (and see www.sinaiticus.net )

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(DISMANTLED), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (the next haven is the third heaven) and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
     
  16. Br. Thomas

    Br. Thomas Active Member

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    Truly, I am missing something here. I guess. Where in this diatribe does it prohibit and condemn crucifixes and crosses?
     
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  17. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my thoughts- but I thought it might be an explanation on why the end of the world might be imminent.
     
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  18. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    1 Timothy 4:v.1-2

    1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and DOCTRINES OF DEVILS;

    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    1Corinthians 10:v.21 -Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the CUP of DEVILS: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of DEVILS.


    JESUS said: He that believeth on me, as the SCRIPTURE hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:v.38
     
  19. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Revelation 9:v.20-21

    20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship DEVILS, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

    21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
     
  20. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Which of these abominations are you suggesting are linked to having crucifixes in our churches then? Your implied criticisms look slanderous to me.
    .