The Roman Church, a true church?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Celtic1, May 26, 2013.

  1. Lux Christi

    Lux Christi Active Member

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    It is an Anglican position, since as far as I have been told, the Anglican Church is in its eventuality a non-confessional Communion. The Anglican Provinces, dioceses, and even parishes will have different ideas of liturgy and worship, and other things that pertain to the culture, clime and country.

    My Vicar, along with many other Anglicans who understand the one, holy, catholic and apostolic aspects of our Christian Faith, testify to the foundational grounds of Scripture and Tradition, which have been passed down to us from the Apostles authorised by Christ Himself. We experience Christ's love and power through the Sacraments, all of which have their testimony in Scripture.

    Without the Grace of God administered through the blessings of the Sacraments and the Divine Liturgy, we have no solid expression of Biblical Christianity. And without the Scriptures, we would have no understanding or depth in performing the ordinances of Christ. As for me and my house, we will worship the Lord - through His Word, and beautified in our Traditions handed to us by our Christian forebears.:D
     
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  2. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    Yes and that contributes to his anti Catholic bias. Like I said 90 percent of former Catholics became rabid anti Catholics.
     
  3. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    Another that I will have to disagree with. Even the Catholic Church was before the Bible and the Bible is Tradition written down.
     
  4. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    There are those in the EOC who can be seen as apologists for St. Augustine, but he is the source of many false teachings. The reformers Calvin and Luther claimed to base many of their teachings on Augustinian theology, and it still surprises me that the RCC considers him a Doctor of the Church when they reject so much of what he taught. Of course even in the EOC we are taught that not everything a saint wrote is necessarily Orthodox, and a saint's sainthood can be based on other factors, but St. Augustine takes the cake with some of the stuff he wrote.
     
  5. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't have one bit of trouble agreeing with what you just wrote. But it was the churches, plural, not "The Church" an hierarchical institution. And the formation of the canon was a gradual and consensual process, not a decision handed done from on high by a hierarchy at the top or head of an institution.

    And still, considering all this, the Articles still affirm that Anglicanism holds to scripture as the primary and final authority. It denies that "Tradition" is equal to or above scripture.

    There are denominations that place tradition on a par with or above scripture, the RCC being one such, with the result being all kinds of anti-scriptural innovations and superstitions. I am glad that Anglicanism affirms the primacy of scripture.
     
  6. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    "Catholic" church, as in the original meaning of the word, "universal". Not "Catholic" as in a hierarchical institution of later development.

    As I have said many times, I do not wish to see Anglo-Catholics or their beliefs purged from Anglicanism, but I choose to follow what traditional Anglicanism believes in this area, which is the primary authority of the scriptures.

    So, tell me, if any "tradition" (or experience, or reason, for that matter) contradicts scripture -- you know, the written record of the teachings of Jesus and the apostles -- which do you believe and follow?
     
  7. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    What I like about the EOC is its decidedly non-Augustinian theology.
     
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  8. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Member

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    Semantics. I wasn't using "Church" as a hierarchical institution. I use big "C" Church to refer to the collective body of all Christendom not a specific branch, sect, denomination, or little "c" church. In my lingo the Church is churches.

    My word use, which admittedly may be idiosyncratic, is reflective of one of my beliefs. I believe that when we are told that we should be "one," it does not mean that one are to be united under one hierarchical umbrella. Rather, I think "one" means we are to be united with one another in love, at peace with one another, and in communion with one another regardless of which umbrella of Christianity we stand under. Therefore one of the things that attracts me to and pleases me about The Episcopal Church is that all baptized Christians are welcome to participate in the Eucharist. I feel quite strongly about that.

    As I said earlier, I believe our RCC brothers and sisters are in error about some things. I SUSPECT that the Anglican Communion and I are in error about some things, too. But because this is what I believe, I cannot see my own errors as clearly as I can see those with whom I disagree. Once again, I believe that when this life is over it will all become clear. And regardless of our best efforts to be faithful to the truth as we understand it, it will be clarified to the entirety of Christendom, "You know what, you didn't get that part quite right. That isn't exactly what I meant."
     
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  9. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    The Church. This where you and I diverge no where in Scripture does it say to use it the way you are doing, instead Scriptures tell us it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth. Scripture is Tradition and as has been mentioned the Church was around much longer than Scripture and it was the Church universal that complied Scripture. As I tell Protestants the Bible did not just fall out of the sky all bound with gold leaf edges.

    I do believe the Catholic church and Orthodox Churches were one until 1054, so yes I do believe the Catholic Church was here from the beginning. I know you choose to follow the other path that cause much division but I chose the traditional path
     
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  10. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Yes, a group of Bishops met and decided (from the writings then in circulation) what was scripture and what was not, guided by the Holy Spirit. Good thing that Luther wasn't at the council, or we might not have the book of James in the Bible. :)
     
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  11. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for explaining, and I appreciate your good post.
     
  12. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    Scripture talks about individual churches -- the church which was at Jerusalem, the church which was at ______ . Fill in the blank. It never talks about some monolithic hierarchical institution. The scriptures were written by apostles or close associates of the apostles before the end of the first century; they were not written nor was the canon determined by some hierarchical institution called "the Church". The churches by a gradual consensual process guided by the Holy Spirit recognized, affirmed, and confirmed the canon. I have already stated that neither I nor anyone I know believes the Bible fell out of the sky, as your demeaning comment charges. I am well aware of how the canon came to be; that is a benefit of study, so you are not talking to a hillbilly with a third grade education.

    I am not a "Protestant", by the way. But to lay the charge that it is Protestants that caused division is not accurate. The RCC departure from the faith of the apostles as recorded in scripture and placing their innovations and "traditions" above scripture is the ultimate source of division.
     
  13. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    At this juncture we must agree to completely disagree
     
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  14. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    Wise move historyb...

    I see these types of threads as a means to voice judgement of others and their beliefs....

    One of the aims of the Franciscan Order is to promote harmony not division.

    This is an extract from the Principles of the TSSF.

     
  15. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, you mean what you have just done to me.

    I asked a legitimate question, and because I defend the traditional Anglican position instead of the Romanist one, I get falsely charged with judging others. If you and others are so enamored of Rome, I'm sure you would be welcomed with open arms, especially based on what I have read here.

    Does your spirit of love and harmony encompass accepting and spreading a false gospel? Is that acceptance wide enough to include anything and everything, even that which is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ?

    Maybe you can accept the RC beliefs about Mary, baptism, transsubstantiation, claims of being the one true church, popes, infallible popes, mandatory clerical celibacy, and more, but I cannot, as this puts them put them on the edge of orthodoxy.
     
  16. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    Celtic I was responding in general about these types of threads my comment was directed at you.
     
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  17. Gordon

    Gordon Well-Known Member

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    I meant to say not directed at you.

    Admin why is there such a short time out on editing of posts?
     
  18. Joan Lucia-Treese

    Joan Lucia-Treese Member

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    ;) Gee I've lost count on all the "true" churches out there!!
     
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  19. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thanks for clarifying. Then I owe you an apology.
     
  20. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder that, too. Sometimes it takes me longer to edit a post than to post the original. :)