The first Romanist 'Anglican Use' liturgy published, and the crisis in the Ordinariate

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by anglican74, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Alright folks, so the first liturgy that's meant for use by the schismatics and converts into Romanism (the so-called Anglican Ordinariate) has finally been published:

    https://anglicanorumcoetibussociety.blog/2018/11/01/first-anglican-use-pew-missal-published/


    The comment by "Tom B." offers the following summary of this disaster (below the announcement):

    “Might we consider it our new book of common prayer?” No. We mightn’t. No Office, no BCP.

    Also, how did the 3-year OF lectionary, the 1970 Kalendar, the “Alternative Eucharistic Prayer” (the faux-Cranmerized Bouyer-Botte dewfall anaphora that some people still falsely attribute to St Hippolytus, not being current on liturgical scholarship), etc., “perfect” the Anglican tradition? All of these severed its links with both the older Sarum, the Anglican BCP, and the traditional Roman use.

    What’s the “essence” and “integrity” of Anglican tradition that has been preserved? Is it really exhausted in some unique collects and structural quirks (e.g. place of penitential rite in the Mass) borrowed from the BCP, while discarding the rest of the structure? The things kept and grafted into the hybrid are incidentals, not the “essence” of the rite, and even if you considered the collects essential, they are severed from their original Kalendar and lectionary context. That’s “preserving and perfecting integrity” as much as the “increase” of Minitrue employee and Outer Party Member Winston Smith’s choco rations from 30g to 25g is an “increase.”

    Later on he adds:

    let’s stay in the realm of facts, and acknowledge those things in which the Anglican (and older Sarum and Roman) tradition and its integrity suffered loss, and stop whitewashing it into some grand “New Anglican-Use Springtime” narrative.


    The Anglicans who converted into the Ordinariate were fooled, and are slowly becoming liberal Romanists (nor could that be avoided, once they canonically joined themselves to the Roman church)... They were hoping to retain their "Anglican heritage" in the traitorous structure of the Ordinariate, but all signs show how quickly they are losing it, and for liberal Romanism of all things (a pretty rotten trade if you ask me)
     
  2. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Just a few weeks ago, Mr. Foster Lerner who is one of the of the main contributors to the website had written this agonized post:

    https://anglicanorumcoetibussociety.blog/2018/10/13/keep-calm-and-catholic-on/


    "This is my third year as a member of the Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter. Never have I been so dismayed as a Catholic by what I hear in the news about our hierarchy and their doings" ...

    "Frequently I find myself utterly at a loss for words at the seemingly out-of-touch (Am I the one out of touch because I read the Catechism, the Councils and the Church Fathers?) comments and inactions of Pope Francis."

    Then this layman proceeds to 'correct' someone he considers to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth:

    "Francis further shows his typical carelessness and either unbelief, malice or woeful ignorance..."

    Pope Francis’ words seem extremely ill-chosen and either (a) designed to undermine Catholic doctrines of the Perpetual Virginity and Immaculate Conception of Mary for the purpose of some misguided syncretism with Protestantism, or (b) extremely poorly chosen and clumsy.

    You've made your bed Mr. Lerner.. sleep in it!
     
  3. Shane R

    Shane R Active Member

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    The Personal Ordinariates and the Western Rite Orthodox Vicariates are two sides of the same coin: a bait and switch meant to convert the taker to something he was not. Except, anyone who believed they could basically remain Anglican while joining either of these groups was extremely naive.
     
  4. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    What was the point of going back to Rome? That seems really counter intuitive to me?

    What the best liturgy we have? We use the 1928 prayer book with the Anglican missal. That liturgy is great, I would think that would be the model.
     
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  5. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

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    Anglicanism is the only branch of the historical Catholic church I am comfortable with having fellowship with. I am really appalled by the deceit being done by Rome, after reading about this on sites like The Anglican Continuum, among others. Claiming you don't have to make any real compromise or sacrifice to reunite with Rome. What's misleading is that the modern Popes, and most obviously Francis, speak enthusiastically about their warmth and love for the Protestant folk, that it's OK to be in some kind of union because after all, we're brothers and sisters, right? Yet, if you talk to any average Catholic priest or bishop, whatever, at your average ordinary Catholic church, you'll find the spirit they have about the church itself and what they think of people outside the fold is quite different and much more elitist. Like I said, I don't have a good attitude about the Roman church and its adherents in general.

    And BTW, welcome back, Rev. I was just thinking of you recently because of my studies about Vatican II and how you said you left Rome for Anglicanism. I am really saddened by the prevalence of ex-Anglican converts to Rome on nearly every internet site you go to look for Anglican info. Anyway, I was going to contact you about some questions regarding Vatican II. Catholic Answers tries to say it didn't contradict doctrine and that the church has always taught some form of universalism or possibility of salvation outside the church even prior to V2, but traditionalists will say that isn't true.
     
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  6. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    If you go back to Trent and compare to V2 you will see a lot of differences.
    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/trent/untitled-114.shtml

    Also just read the 1962 missal and compare it to the Novus Ordus. The theology is clear and will stick out to a blind man.
     
  7. DivineOfficeNerd

    DivineOfficeNerd Active Member Anglican

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    Just as a matter of correction, this is not the first Ordinariate Liturgy published. The first edition of this (an altar book) came out in 2015. This is the first pew edition of the Anglo-Roman liturgy to come out.

    As for the Ordinariate drawing folks in, I think they appeal mostly to an Anglo-Papalist crowd. While we talk about Francis's "love" for Protestant folk, most of the people that are joining the Ordinariate do not describe themselves as Protestant. It is merely the opportunity that certain ritualists have been waiting for since Newman swam the Tiber. I'd be more worried about Western Rite Orthodoxy than I would about this little Roman experiment.
     
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  8. Shane R

    Shane R Active Member

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    I've had a pew edition of the Ordinariate Missal for a couple of years. A certain parish I visited for a time had made some in booklet form. That reminds me of two other points I'll toss out about these guys:
    1) Vocations are virtually non-existent. I know they supposedly have three guys in seminary but that's not a lot for a mighty Roman diocese. The clergy are shuffled around as little parishes fail and they end up concentrated at the handful of big parishes (San Antonio, D.C., Baltimore). None of those guys know anything about church planting.

    2) It could be that the book lacks a daily office because there is no real demand for it. Most of these people would rather pray the Rosary, the Angelus, the Stations of the Cross, a Novena for _____, Divine Mercy Chaplet or really anything other than Morning and Evening Prayer.
     
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  9. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Most of the people I know who are likely to be attracted to the ordinariate are already using the Roman Missal, the Roman Lectionary and the Breviary, so this idea of producing an Anglican friendly liturgy for them would probably seem regressive to them. The ordinariate has in Australia not been hugely successful, and some priest's who have joined believe that Rome sees them as 2nd class (not quite really Roman) and the Anglicans see them as traitors, heretics and Apostates, basically they have fallen between the two stools, into a cold and lonely desert. I certainly am not questioning their integrity, however to me it seems a difficult choice, in some ways I think they may have been better to do a Newman and swim the Tiber.
     
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  10. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    Newman at least seemed honest and committed. This just seems wishy washy, there just dog paddling in the middle?
    I hope we get a Calvin Ordinariate sometime. Would make just as much since to me.
     
  11. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

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  12. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    So much of Vii is written in such a horrible open ended way that the abuse was kinda asked for.

    Also a lot of it is counter to Trent.
     

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