The core question to Universalists

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by anglican74, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    @Stalwart I am very disappointed in you. I have never known you to twist someone's words to try to trump up an argument. The the thread to which you are referring is "Calvinism, the Elect". I never said I don't believe in Hell nor did I say I believe in Purgatory. In fact, on 2/22/18, in a reply to you I said exactly the opposite.

    If you can't quote me with integrity, I don't think it wise to continue to engage you in conversation.
     
  2. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Look I don't want this to get personal. I have oodles of respect for you, outside this issue. This doesn't need to get to a personal level. I was just passing by and got riled up, because you and I both see how many revisionists there are out today. I didn't mean to misquote you, and if I did I'm sorry. I hope you see why others and I say that the position you advocate effectively means the substitution of purgatory for the concept of hell. It's something worth thinking about. Also, the Athanasian Creed is super clear on eternal punishment, so I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
     
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  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Fair enough, @Stalwart . I am an Episcopalian who subscribes to the 39 Articles of of the PECUSA, ratified in 1801, which has no requirement to believe the Athansian Creed, only the Apostles and Nicene.

    Holy scripture backs up the trinitarian formula, and so I believe and confess it, whether or not it is codified in a formula. But since I do not believe Scripture teaches eternal punishment, I reject any formula that tries to teach what is not found in scripture. If however, the formula is echoing Our Lord's parable of the sheep and the goats, then the fire, in my opinion, is not eternal and I therefore accept it.

    Here is additional information about what I am referring to:

    https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2017/...nt-forever-aionios-and-the-universalist-hope/
     
  4. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I guess, for me, the core question for particularists is how one squares a God who is all powerful (Matthew 19:26), all loving (1 John 4:8), who has revealed that he wants no one lost but all people to be saved (2 Peter 3:9), has made it impossible for anyone to save themselves so that he can save them all (Romans 11:32), sent his son to be the savior of the whole world (1 Tim 4:10, 1 John 4:14), but somehow will not accomplish his will. Does he lack the power? Does he lack the will? What possible force can overcome God's will and plan for his creation?
     
  5. GunMetal23

    GunMetal23 New Member

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    Just going to say this, I believe it’s a real possibility. Anyone who says “then why did Jesus die?” Does not understand proper biblical universal reconciliation. Gregory of Nyssa, the one who created (helped create?) the nicene creed was a proponent of universalism, a strong one at that. The majority of the text that support this appear in Paul’s letters, Paul was revealed the full scope of revelation. He has the ending past revelation. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is the end. Not Revelation 14:11 or the second death. I suggest you read Matthew 25:46 in youngs literal, Rotherham emphasized, Concordant literal, dabhar ultraliteral, emphatic diaglott, etc. none of those translations have the word “eternal” or “everlasting” in connection to punishment and Matt 25:46 is not even the general judgement. The words “eternal” and “everlasting” should never appear in scripture. It’s not some liberal feel good theology. In no way do we deny punishment, or Gods holiness or justice. His justice is perfectly balanced as Proberbs 11:1 testifies. Jesus is called the “savior of the world” multiple times. I simply believe he’s going to save the world as he himself said. I’ve offered before, I’ll eat my hat if anyone can find a single verse in the Pentateuch where Moses informed the Israelites that eternal punishment is a reality.
     
  6. GunMetal23

    GunMetal23 New Member

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    Just wanted to make another point. This is the same vain argument every standard Calvinist apologist uses and we’ve all heard for years. Here’s an example for that nonsense on “world”. It would be like a racial supremacist going through the Declaration of Independence and finding every instance where “all” cannot *possibly* be used in an unlimited since and then going back and saying that the “all men” in “all men are created equal” does not really mean all. We all use words for varying situations throughout the day. Here’s the “core” issue if you will, yes “all” and “world” were used in limited since. By 75% of the time the limiter is included in the passage, even as A.W Pink said. And just because it is used in a limited since in one verse or chapter or book, does *NOT* mean the author also intended it to mean limited in connection to eschatological and soteriological issues, it would make no sense for them to do that when they could have said “many” or “few” or other words that do not lead people into error in your view. I’ve yet to see a Calvinist exegete Romans 5:18-19 8:20 and 11:32 without injecting something to make paul seem like he can’t possibly be saying what he is saying. It comes from the presupposition “well if we take this at face value then it’s teaching universalism, and we all know that can’t be true”. I’ve got a good book somewhere on the futility of systematic theology... wish I could find it again, it’s absolutely eye opening and refreshing. We can’t know everything about scripture. It has paradoxes that require more dimensions than the ones relative to us to understand.
     
  7. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

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    I agree with you about Calvinism. I once saw a debate between a Roman Catholic apologist and a Reformed Calvinist apologist, and I said that I believed in neither because Calvinism and doctrines like the Immaculate Conception both take liberties with the word 'all', such as whether Christ died for the whole world, or whether all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Not sure how it applies to the discussion of universalism in its entirety, though.
     
  8. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    How can that be so, if the world we live in is as imperfect as it obviously is regarding human conduct, and we are advised by Our Lord to pray "Thy Kingdom Come on Earth". Regardless of our destiny in heaven, hell or wherever.

    There is absolutely nothing in the Lord's prayer concerning our eternal destination, only our safe conduct on earth, divine provision and the requirement for compassion towards others, in this life, here and now.

    Christ's ministry, teaching, death and resurrection were essential for the improvement of the human race on earth in every generation, regardless of whether heaven or hell exist. It is here and now that the Church Militant is in action. The church in heaven are at rest, their labours are over, the battle won.

    In this life Jesus Christ judges no one. They judge themselves in the next, by the words of their own mouth. But we have no idea what those words might be when they "Gaze upon him whom they had pierced", "The lamb slain before the foundation of the world". The one "in whom God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them".

    The common mistake of many universalists and those opposed to ALL forms of universalism, is in failing to see the difference between "Universal Atonement" and "Universal entry to the church, with the full salvation and aonian life that that entails". The first is Biblical. The second clearly is not.

    The world, although no longer having their sins 'held against them', are thus, 'saved' from judgment for those sins, God is reconciled with them, in Christ, but they are not of themselves yet reconciled to God until they repent and return to Him, by becoming baptized disciples of Jesus Christ and living the disciplined life of a 'good and faithful servant'.

    Salvation is free, already entirely provided by God, in Christ on the cross for the entire world and everything in it. A historical fact.

    Discipleship however is not FREE, it is costly, humbling, arduous, dangerous and burdensome, but with Christ's yoke and The Holy Spirit's empowerment, it is also EASY. And it is infinitely worthwhile.

    The world is saved! Jesus Christ has saved it, but it is not entrusted with the message of reconciliation. That alone is the privilege bestowed upon the church of Christ, by God The Holy Spirit. It is entrusted to us, not to the world. It is preached to the world, by the power of The Holy Spirit, by us, the church, to draw them to Christ, to become his disciples, to do His work on earth and to receive assurance of the Salvation they already unknowingly possess as a free gift.

    No one of the world, that remains unreconciled to God, is entrusted with the gospel of reconciliation, by God. Thus is the origin of false gospels, from the mouths of the unreconciled, unregenerates. 2 Cor.11:13. Gal.1:6-7, Gal.2:4,.

    Paul declared this class of people "Saved but only as through fire". 1 Cor.3:15.

    ___________________________________
    In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet. 4:8.
     

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