The core question to Universalists

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by anglican74, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Fair enough, but using the interpretation of a hard-boiled Calvinist like AW Pink, with all the baggage that that entails, is hardly convincing for an Anglican reader. I at least am persuaded by scripture, apostolic tradition, and reason. Not calvinists interpreting scripture to prop up calvinist ideas.
     
  2. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Interesting question, and sadly I've never given it much thought. As I've noted already, William Law is a notable non-juring Anglican. Rev. Thomas Allin was an Anglican clergyman from Ireland who wrote Universalism Asserted (1905). In 1996, the Doctrine Commission of the Church of England published a book called The Mystery of Salvation, which, from what I hear, acknowledges both the reality of Hell (as do I) and the possibility of Universal Rsstoration (as do I). American Founding Father and Episcopalian Dr. Benjamin Rush was an avowed universalist and hoped it would become the dominant view in this country. CS Lewis, in the Great Divorce and oft quoted "the gates of hell are locked from the inside" certainly hints at Universalism as a possibility.

    These are some off the top of my head, but I'm sure further research could yield others if one was so inclined. I am not.
     
  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    ...almost forgot Canon Basil Wilberforce, Archdeacon of Westminster, who wrote a letter of support that appears in Allin's book.
     
  4. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I cannot believe you quoted the great CS Lewis in support of universalism... Have you read any of his works?

    Here is how you read his phrase: "The gates of hell are locked from the inside" (ah ha, there's hope!)
    And here is how he meant it: "The gates of hell are locked from the inside" (we doom ourselves to perdition)

    Benjamin Rush was a physician and a medic from the wildwoods of Pennsylvania; not a "noted Anglican theologian" so you are grasping at straws... Where are the big and legendary Anglican theologians, where are the bishops, where is Thomas Bilson, Richard Hooker, where is Lancelot Andrews, William Beveridge!
     
  5. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    With regard to Dr. Rush, you asked for "ANY notable historic Anglicans" which is what I gave you. Now you say it should have been a "noted Anglican theologian". You are moving the goal post, a typical move by pro-hellers in an argument.

    As for CS Lewis, I would invite you to read The Great Divorce. The afterlife he presents there is much more fluid than generally held by Particularists. I would say he leaves open the possibility (the hope) of Universalism. Which, as I have said before, is all I call for. I am humble enough to admit I don't have all the answers about the Great Hereafter. But Scripture, my reason, and the teaching of many serious, learned and devout Christians have convinced me that the possibility--the hope--of the ultimate restoration of ALL people in Christ is well-founded.
     
  6. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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  7. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    I mean, unless we are now excluding non-jurors as notable Anglican theologians, I'd still include William Law...
     
  8. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    He was just a lay "non-puritan" Englishman; for all that he could've been an English-speaking Eastern Orthodox, as there were some... He was NOT in the Church of England, and not in the hierarchy or subject to ecclesiastical discipline..

    Many non-jurors drifted away from Anglican orthodoxy as time went on... The rod of the Church was missing to reign them in

    But most damning to my mind is that he did not know much of Anglican theology, or study our historic Divines (reading folks like Jacob Boehme instead), for as I mention he didn't know anything of Thomas Bilson or Richard Hooker or Lancelot Andrews, and didn't directly learn from his contemporaries like Bishop William Beveridge...

    Similarly he had no notable theologian descendants in his school of thought, and thus it proved to be sterile, just like Boehme's overall "theosophy" proved to be both sterile and an introduction to the heresies of the nineteenth century (when all the floodgates let loose)
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  9. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    https://giphy.com/gifs/reactionseditor-l4FGuhL4U2WyjdkaY
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Reverend F. W. Farrar denied eternal punishment in a famous series of sermons in Westminster Abbey in 1877, which were published as Eternal Hope in 1878.
     
  11. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It also should be noted that the convocation which approved the final version of the 39 Articles of Religion, deliberately and intentionally rejected the 42d article from Cranmer's earlier draft which expressly condemned Universalism and those who promoted it:
    From this positive action on the convocation's part, it is clear that the Anglican Reformers were of a mind to at least leave open the possibility of Universalism as a tolerated belief in the church.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
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  12. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Even in Cranmer's denunciation, he at least is honest enough to acknowledge that Universalism was not alien to the church but was once accepted but subsequently fwll out of favor when he used the word "restore".
     
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  13. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Add to that the text of Article 31:

    "XXXI. Of the one Oblation of Christ finished upon the Cross.
    The Offering of Christ once made is that perfect redemption, propitiation, and satisfaction, for all the sins of the whole world, both original and actual; and there is none other satisfaction for sin, but that alone..."

    And I think there's enought at the Anglican table for Universalists to sit quite comfortably.
     
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  14. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    For me, universalism begs the question , why bother to live a good life if heaven is assured ?
     
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  15. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    To avoid the wrath to come. Hell is real. Hell is terrible. It's just not eternal. Why go through Hell to get to Heaven when you can just go to Heaven?
     
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  16. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  17. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Alright it's time for me to get into this thread. I'm seeing pretty insane things being taught here.

    @Lowly Layman you and I had an exchange about this in the other thread, and there it was made eminently clear that you do not believe in Hell. You believe in Purgatory (only). Here was my encapsulation of your view, which you did not challenge or contravene:

    To you, when you say "Hell", you actually mean a temporary place of cleansing pains. You mean Purgatory. You do not mean a permanent place of punitive punishment.

    You are equating universal atonement with universalism. The historic Anglican doctrines teach universal atonement, as contrasted with Calvinistic limited/particular atonement. That's all that refers to. You will never find Archbishop Parker or the men of the Convocations which drafted the Articles of Religion, or Archbishop Cranmer, or John Overall and the Convocation of 1604 which revised the Canons, and certainly not the Prayer Book Commission of 1661 which issued the 1662 BCP, to subscribe to your view. In fact they would routinely refer to your view as heretical.
     
  18. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    :doh:

    Have you ever read, and do you subscribe to the Athanasian Creed? As an Anglican you are required by faith to agree and accept the Athanasian Creed, and it is mandated in the BCP to be read every single year. Here is how it begins:

    Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.

    And in Latin:

    Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem: Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit. Fides autem catholica haec est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur. Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam separantes.
     
  19. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    What I notice from your list of citations is that you that you're quoting the early onset of Modernists who have begun to wreck the English and the Episcopal Churches by the turn of the 20th century. You can quote the Church of England from 1996, but we both know that the CofE today has women bishops and transsexual pervert priests and is now full of heretics. Do you really want to quote from one of its documents in 1996? You want to join your faith with people like that?

    The blessed and beautiful Church of England that has been planted on the shores of England in the 1st century AD is coming to an end, and the cut-off for its orthodoxy comes in the 1970s and 1980s. That was the last of the faithful, and the new dominance of the new liberals have by now destroyed everything. Their forefathers were in the early 1900s, and you are citing all those same dissenters and liberals yourself. Do you want your children to be ministered to by a transsexual priest? Then why are you citing those thoughts? I don't think you'd enjoy being in their company, or citing their "thoughts" for your side of an argument.
     
  20. CuriousBeliever

    CuriousBeliever New Member Anglican

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    @Lowly Layman, I was reading your comment about how hell isn’t everlasting, it sounded a lot like the catholic idea of purgatory. From a Universalism point of view what would the time line look like for those who perish in hell? Would their actions dictate how long they were to stay in hell? Coming from a non universal point of view I was in the line of thought in believing that faith was what saved people. But from a universalist point of view time and suffering is what gains us salvation? Could you clarify your stance on the matter, please.
     
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