The Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) and Anglicanism

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Liturgyworks, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Established Church of Scotland is, alas, due to the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution, and before that, John Knox and the Calvinists, not the Scottish Episcopal Church, and while a minority of Scots did become Episcopalian, a majority resisted bitterly the attempts by St. Laud and others to expand Anglicanism north of the border. Thus the United Kingdom has the anomaly of two state churches, although in the case of Scotland, the Church of Scotland has been partially but not altogether disestablished (in contrast to the Church in Wales and the Church of Ireland). The Church of Scotland has also sadly become as radically liberal in places as the Scottish Episcopal Church (something I am extremely unhappy about, by the way, because of my extreme love for the Scottish traditions of Anglicanism and the Scottish heritage of the Episcopal Church and its Continuing Anglican successors; also the 1929 BCP is particularly exquisite and they aren’t really using it).

    But, what I want to understand is how the Church of Scotland and the Church of England are “interfaced” in the case of services to the English monarch, for example. Her Majesty goes to church every Sunday at Balmoral; what are these and other royal services like in Scotland and how would they differ from equivalent English services? We all see the small role the Moderator played at the Coronation of Her Majesty in 1953 (Long may she reign), by presenting the Queen with a Bible. But what else is there? Does the royal family take communion or allow its children to be baptized in both churches? Can an Anglican in Scotland or a Scotsman in England join without repercussions a congregation of the other State Church? And what about the worship of the Royal Family while in Wales or Northern Ireland? Would they use the disestablished Anglican churches therein? Or instead rely on the ministrations of their own Chaplains? Or make sure to return to England or Scotland before Sunday?

    ~

    It is not just the overlapping worship of the Royals I am interested in. While listening to archived recordings of BBC Radio 3’s Choral Evensong from the Archive of Recorded Church Music on YouTube, I found an excellent one from Scotland called Paisley Abbey. It was not labelled Choral Vespers, which is what the Beeb calls Choral Evensong when it is not Anglican. However it turns out the service I heard, which was not noticeably different, and which indeed sounded exactly the same as, Anglican evensong, aside from the accents, was coming from a Church of Scotland parish. So is there some history of Choral Evensong in the Church of Scotland, and does this still happen?

    There was a high-church pro-liturgical movement in the 19th century Kirk, indeed two such movements, Mercersberg Theology among Presbyterian and continental Calvinists in the US, and the Scottish Church Society and the related Church Service Society in the UK. And there were people who identified as “Scoto-Catholics”, which seems a strange concept, but then again when I first met ultra high church Lutherans from the LCMS I was also bewildered. But attempts to penetrate the fog surrounding historic liturgical practices of the Church of Scotland in the 20th century that would be equivalent to high church Anglicanism have been unsuccessful; rather one runs into the unhelpful Book of Common Order, and the Euchologion of the 19th century, and the services authored by Knox, Calvin and Bucer in the 16th century (in the book Liturgies of the Western Church, but details on what we might call Scottish high church parish life remain elusive.

    The input of @PDL and other British members on this thread would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    The last Eucharist I attended in Edinburgh was in Edinburgh was 1928 liturgically.

    I remember the note in the porch which read 'please do not refer to us as the English Church.'
     
  3. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    In the Narthex of the Scottish Episcopal Church presumably?

    I’m asking in this thread about the other Scottish church, the Established Church of Scotland, the Presbyterian Kirk, which was historically anti-BCP, because I am insanely curious why one of their kirks, Paisley Abbey, did Choral Evensong for the BBC.

    There is a BCPish Morning and Evening prayer in the PCUSA service books, but the PCUSA, which alas recently capitulated on homosexuality but is giving its congregations the freedom to leave (if only TEC were so generous), but the PCUSA is not the Church of Scotland.

    And I am also fascinated as to how similar or different the worship life of the Queen and the Royals becomes when they are at Balmoral or another place north of the Border rather than in England.
     
  4. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

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  5. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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  6. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It looks like Paisley Abbey might have been exercising the hypothetical freedom of Scottish churches to use BCP Choral Evensong, since they still offer an Evening Service, and they have a choir, which used to be a boys choir, but alas now unfortunately includes girls: https://www.paisleyabbey.org.uk/music/

    I am opposed to co-ed choirs with both boys and girls because I think in a group that age children will enjoy it more if it is one sex or the other. Also, to be frank, girls can’t sing as forcefully or cover the same range as boys; boys can actually outperform untrained adult female singers much of the time, which is one reason why Westminster Abbey and so on use boys choirs.

    It is also on a darker note why in Italy in the past, in another splendid example of traditional Roman Catholic virtue for @Stalwart to add to the list I am supplying him of Papist malfeasances, boys were castrated to preserve their voices before puberty, the Castratti.

    We should be thankful on an unrelated note the attempt at a sex change on the poor 7 year old boy whose mother wants to make him into a girl was stopped by giving his father shared conservatorship and medical consent.
     
  7. PDL

    PDL Active Member Anglican

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    To quickly dispense with Wales and Northern Ireland. I do not think The Queen worships there. There are no royal residences there so she will not be there at the weekend. If she officially attended a service in one of those countries it would, I am certain, be according to the liturgy of that church. It would be most likely in the Anglican churches of those two countries.

    If my knowledge if correct and current when Her Majesty goes to church on a Sunday it is not normally to a Eucharistic service. In England, I believe that she attends Mattins. In Scotland, i.e. at Balmoral, and possible the Palace of Holyrood House, she would attend the Church of Scotland's equivalent morning service.

    Should The Queen attend Holy Communion I think she does so privately in the private chapel in her residence with one of her private chaplains officiating. The Mattins or other morning service she attends is a public one close to the residence she is at.

    Members of the Royal Family are only baptised once. That is in the Church of England. The service is usually private. Currently, the chapel at St James's Palace in London seems to be a preferred place for it. Such baptisms are usually administered by a Church of England bishop.

    I hope I have answered all the questions you posed, Liturgyworks. I have done so as well as I can. I'm afraid Her Majesty does not keep me appraised of what she is doing.:D
     
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  8. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I figured you took tea with her at Buckingham Palace after luncheon with her private secretary at the “Boring Goring” (which is actually not boring at all, but the last family owned luxury hotel in London, but I prefer the Savoy. The Fairmont refurbishment is splendid. Claridges is also epic, Spencer Tracy said that when he died, he didn’t care about going to Heaven, if he had his choice he would go to Claridges. And they have Lobster Wellington....)
     
  9. PDL

    PDL Active Member Anglican

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    One would consume cafe as one's post-prandial beverage, never tea. Tea is consumed at five o'clock in the afternoon with crumpets, scones and HM's favourite, Dundee cake.
     
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  10. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    I don't know the answer, but since the Queen has appointed Presbyterian private chaplains, would they be the ones ministering to her up here? I know historically in Scotland communion is celebrated only 4 times a year. This still happens within my own congregation.

    As an aside this article might be interesting to the discussion:

    https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk...cal-agreement-with-church-of-england-approved

    I do wonder how much these agreements make in practice though. In my evangelical circles we had a retired bishop preach several times at our CoS church and perform the Baptism (the child was his grandson), Anglicans and Presbyterians often marry each other with no issue about switching denominations and no issues regarding taking communion in each other's churches. I know Baptist churches which recommend to their members local Anglican churches in England as the best church in the area and even, on occasion, recite prayers from the 1662 BCP. And all this before and without official ecumenical agreement.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  11. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    accidental duplicate
     
  12. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Can you share with us anything about what traditional Church of Scotland services were and are like? I am frustrated because I cannot find, for example, any recordings of them on YouTube, nor a good, recent edition of their hymnals or other service books. My understanding is that the Church of Scotland is a bit like the PCUSA in that it does have some liturgical materials, they simply are not binding in the way the BCP is binding upon Anglican parishes.
     
  13. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    You're right, there's a lot of leeway and the Book of Common Order is not prescriptive. For example, I've seen different ministers conduct Baptismal services and none do it exactly the same in terms of words used and liturgy etc.

    Expository preaching has traditionally been the central focus of the service. Sadly not everywhere still does it. One parish church we've been to has more of a thought for the day style message. When I went to my wife's childhood church (she was raised nominally CoS) the sermon revolved around an exposition of one of JF Kennedy's speeches with the Bible virtually not mentioned at all! If you want to check out one of the most influential expository preachers within the denomination of his generation, check out James Philip's sermons here: http://www.thetron.org/resources/the-james-philip-archives/jparchive-about/. Generally CoS services start off with hymns, there are prayers (normally extempore), often there's a children's talk before the children go to Sunday School, an offering is taken, there's a bible reading and sermon. Service normally finishes with a hymn or song and a benediction from the minister. For Communion, which is normally 4 times a year, the table, normally wooden, is lined with a plain white table cloth. My church uses individual cups but I know others stick to the traditional large cups being passed around. Communion is generally taken sitting in the pews/chairs although historically the warden would point to a row in the church with his stick and that row would go up to the front and sit at the table to partake before leaving and the next row going up.

    Hymnals have often been replaced with overhead projectors now. For churches which still have them this one is the most popular: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Church-Hym...rch+of+scotland+hymnary&qid=1574455347&sr=8-3. There's often a mix of traditional slow Presbyterian hymns, faster Wesleyian type hymns and modern songs - Keith and Kristyn Getty's and Stuart Townend's songs are pretty popular within Evangelical congregations.

    Anyway, hope my rambling answer was helpful
     
  14. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Very much so. One thing I am interested in is what you would consider exemplary of a slow Presbyterian hymn vs. a faster Wesleyan hymn. If you look at the content of Presbyterian hymnals in the US, and at Methodist hymnals, there is not a great deal of difference, and in general the predominant form of hymn consists of chorales by Wesley, Luther, and indeed various Presbyterian composers, but the only piece which instantly calls to mind Reformed churches in any way is The Old Hundredth, which is used ubiquitously among churches that still have traditional hymns (usually with the lyrics “Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow.” When I was in Ghana however, I attended Ebenezer Presbyterian Church, which is somewhat well regarded, where several beautiful hymns were sung, and I did not recognize any of them, and neither hymnals nor a projector were in use. I have to confess I am not a fan of projectors.

    In the US, the only Presbyterians who have a distinct musical style are the Covenanters, the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. They are I believe quite well established in your native Scotland as well (they have the blue banner that reads “For Christ’s Crown and Covenant”). Their music consists of a capella exclusive psalmody, and I do have a copy of their Psalter, which is quite well done; unfortunately I cannot find any recordings of their services or of them singing it.

    The hymnal you linked to looks interesting. Since the 1970s, PCUSA hymnals have followed the lead of Lutheran, Dutch Reformed and Methodist hymnals by including the orders of worship and related rubrics in the first few chapters, although there is also a separate Book of Order with more detail. Would I be correct in assuming that CoS hymnals lack liturgical instructions?

    My background before I got into the mixture of traditional Anglicanism, Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy that presently characterizes my faith was Methodist (United Methodist; I am not a big fan of British Methodism). My godfather was a Lutheran pastor in the Augustana Synod (comprised largely of Swedish Americans, which has now been sucked into the gigantic ecclesiastical monstrosity that is the ECUSA).
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  15. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    The difference is now historical, but Methodists were historically known for their faster paced hymns - I'm sure there's a good quote from either Charles or John Wesley about this but I can't find it right now.

    Take, for example, Psalm 23 set to the tune Crimond or "Not what my hands have done" by the 19th century hymnwriter Horatius Bonar:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoBgjVsqC8s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9yhZQagpQc

    And compare it to a couple of Charles Wesley's hymns and you'll see a stylistic difference:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O9kw3cILpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t66l03XmQI

    But today we sing all kinds.

    That's interesting about your experiences in Ghana. Was it mainly Western hymns or did they also sing any African style hymns too? And pretty impressed if they managed to sing all the hymns from memory - wish I could do that! Personally I don't mind projectors but I do realise they can look aesthetically ugly sometimes.

    Interested to know a bit more about the Covenanters - I know the denomination still exists in Scotland but it's pretty small and I have never actually met anybody from the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Scotland. Sounds like you know more about them than I do. Is their psalter the 1650 Scottish Psalter? The Free Church of Scotland, until a few years back (2010 I think?) had exclusive psalmody with no instruments s you might find some of their recordings on youtube.

    About the liturgical instruction - I never knew hymn books often came with that in them in America - interesting. No, ours is just a plain hymn book. So, out of interest, what made you leave Methodism for Anglicanism? Am I right American Methodism is pretty similar to Anglicanism?
     
  16. PDL

    PDL Active Member Anglican

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    None of this surprises me at all. It is quite common for Protestant churches to regard each other a fully valid and to practise intercommunion. In her life my own mother has flitted between Church of England, Methodist and Congregational/United Reformed Church (URC). Currently, she sees herself as an Anglican but goes to the local URC chapel because it is the easiest for her to get to on a Sunday.

    Those of us who are Anglo-Catholic tend not to do this. I would be interested to know what Evangelicals feel about other Protestant churches.
     
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