Stance on Mary?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by CuriousBeliever, Dec 12, 2017.

Tags:
  1. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

    Posts:
    356
    Likes Received:
    129
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Christian
    It's hard to deny that things like symbolism and typology make up a large part of the bible, it's history, people, etc. However, there are certainly instances where you can make up some really elaborate and convincing things of this sort to claim that the bible teaches something that it likely doesn't. For instance, a lot of black nationalists hold to some interesting views:

    1. That Africa was the birthplace of mankind and the original hebrews were black. (This probably has some validity.)
    2. That Satan is the prince of this world, who comes as an angel of light and was described as the morning star/lucifer. The white man represents his princehood in being a leader in world dominance and politics. His complexion mirrors the appearance of the angel of light, coupled with the fact that he offers comfort and deliverence at the expense of faith. This is because black African countries are generally more religious but 'simpler', and white ones are generally more secular and 'advanced', because Satan claimed people could have peace and joy apart from dependence on God, who are generally supposed to be more humble.
    3. The idea of envying white skin is like saying the way God made you is not good enough, which parallels the symbolism of Eve's deception where the snake tried to tell her he had some knowledge that she lacked and needed to reject God to obtain it.
    4. That the primacy of Rome, and other western churches suggests a demonic conspiracy of whitewashing, especially since Hitler had some connection to it (though of course Catholics have often defended it by saying he was not a true Catholic or even Christian, as do many Protestants, no disagreement there).
    5. Last, that the angels and demons seducing women in the time of Noah produced different races including the whites which is why he is the offspring of Satan and his demons.

    You might remember the movie Malcolm X, where he was in prison with blonde-dyed hair and a black nationalist confronted him about it, then showed him literature like the dictionary where he claimed that black was always used as a very negative symbol to show white bias. If you took the black nationalist apologetics at face value, you could see how they can be convinced that this is all true, even if it is not explicitly stated in the bible. Then, you would have to assume that Jesus was in fact a black jew who came to rid the world of white oppression specifically.

    On another note, and forgive me if this sounds crude, but I do recall some esotericists arguing once that the symbolism of Peter's name has several other meanings than is usually thought. They say that although it meant that he was the rock/a rock of the church, it predicted what would happen to his successors (or supposed succesors) later in history. That is, that Peter came to be an english slang word for a penis, and the meaning of rock meant an erection. This foreshadowed the lust spirit which would eventually infiltrate the church as we see today with many scandals and in other points of its history. And we know how some people debate about how much influence the Roman Church absorbed from its pagan neighbors.

    You could say that there is some truth to these parallels, and they exist because in terms of the grand scheme of things organized by Satan and his followers, there exists a perverse and inverted imitation of these symbols in addition to the authentic God-ordained meanings we can find attested in scripture. That would make sense, so as to help propagate a lot of false movements and perpetuate confusion as the church grows and moves throughout history.
     
  2. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    953
    Likes Received:
    567
    Country:
    N Ireland
    Religion:
    Traditional RomanCatholic
    As for Mary in the Book of Common Prayer, there are a few prayers in the U.S. 1979 which are Holy Days of the Blessed Virgin Mary :

    Saint Mary the Virgin August 15

    O God, who hast taken to thyself the blessed Virgin Mary,
    mother of thy incarnate Son: Grant that we, who have been
    redeemed by his blood, may share with her the glory of thine
    eternal kingdom; through the same thy Son Jesus Christ our
    Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee, in the unity of the
    Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.

    The Visitation May 31

    Father in heaven, by whose grace the virgin mother of thy
    incarnate Son was blessed in bearing him, but still more blessed
    in keeping thy word: Grant us who honor the exaltation of her
    lowliness to follow the example of her devotion to thy will;
    through the same Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth
    with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.


    The Annunciation March 25
    We beseech thee, O Lord, pour thy grace into our hearts, that
    we who have known the incarnation of thy Son Jesus Christ,
    announced by an angel to the Virgin Mary, may by his cross
    and passion be brought unto the glory of his resurrection;
    who liveth and reigneth with thee, in the unity of the Holy
    Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.

    Can anyone advise as to the origin of these prayers? I know that many of the collects in the prayer book are often taken from older texts. I think that these prayers continue to give Mary respect and honor, but maintain the focus on Jesus Christ as our salvation.[/QUOTE]
    August 15 is a hugely important Feast Day for us also, The Feast of the Assumption
     
  3. Anglican04

    Anglican04 Active Member Anglican

    Posts:
    165
    Likes Received:
    112
    In the Philippines, having white skin is better than having dark skin. People use papaya soaps and injections to make their skin lighter, where it is the opposite here in the US.
     
  4. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    219
    Likes Received:
    367
    Country:
    United States
    Religion:
    Happy Anglican
    August 15 is a hugely important Feast Day for us also, The Feast of the Assumption[/QUOTE]

    Aidan,

    I checked the prayer books since the 1549. They have the Annunciation and Purification of St Mary the Virgin. I did not see the other ones.

    You need to know that the '79 is accepted by the TEC, but no other Anglican Body. Issues with language and innovations led to this conclusion.
    If you can find it a book called "Neither Orthodoxy nor a Formulary" by Fr. Louis R. Tarsitano and Fr. Peter Toon will shed much light on why orthodox Anglicans don't like this version of the prayer book.

    The Traditional St Augustine's Prayer Book has many prayers, rosary etc surrounding the Blessed Virgin Mother. I do not think it is use outside of
    the Anglican Catholic Church.

    Hope this helps.

    Blessings

    Fr. Mark
     
    Stalwart and Anglican04 like this.
  5. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    766
    Likes Received:
    960
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglican
    The Australian Prayer Books AAPB and APBA both mark August 15 as a general feast day of Mary, mother of the Lord. Variously observed in practice as anything from the Assumption or the Dormition or St Mary or a Mothers Union Special Service or not at all. Our lectionary says Mary, Mother of the Lord.

    Common Worship declares August 15 major Feast - Blessed Virgin Mary.

    https://www.churchofengland.org/pra...urces/common-worship/churchs-year/calendar#p5

    I don;t know haw it is celebrated in practice in England, but I would expect probably much as in Australia. Given the dogmatic statement of the Assumption is in 1950 it is hardly surprising that it makes a late appearance in Anglican lectionaries.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  6. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    247
    Likes Received:
    337
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    Anglican, CofE
    We didn't celebrate the Marian Feast Day on August 15th as we no longer hold midweek services at my village church. Our Cathedral Church (Truro) held a Solemn First Evensong on the eve of the feast and a Solemn Eucharistic on the day itself. It was not however styled 'of the Assumption'.
     
  7. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    1,827
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    American Anglican
    I believe the Angelus to be thoroughly scriptural.

    "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you" - See Luke 1:28

    "Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus" - Luke 1:41-42

    "Holy Mary" - see Luke 1:35 & 38

    "Mother of God" - see Luke 1:43

    "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" - see James 5:16.

    "The Angel of the LORD declared unto Mary,
    And she conceived of the Holy Spirit." - a summary of Luke 1

    "Behold the handmaid of the LORD. Be it done unto me according to thy word." - Luke 1:38

    "And the Word was made flesh. And dwelt among us" - John 1:14

    I find nothing objectionable with the Angelus and many Anglicans agree.
     
    Botolph likes this.
  8. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    935
    Likes Received:
    753
    Country:
    America
    Religion:
    Anglican

    The Authorized (King James) Translation:
    Luke 1:28:
     
  9. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

    Posts:
    356
    Likes Received:
    129
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Christian
    What I find to be scary is that even the slightest open doors can give a foothold to trouble and deception. I have heard Catholic forum members talking about giving a rosary to a pagan, atheist, jew, etc. and telling them to pray hail Mary while actively denying her existence, and then they later on had some experience that led to their conversion. They said it's a sign of predestination. I also read an article by a Protestant who explained how they came to love the Rosary, blatantly praying hail Marys out of curiosity despite their denomination's advice against it. They also updated the article with a footnote saying they had converted to Catholicism.

    Thing is, how would you like it the other way around? There are also many similar stories of conversions of Roman Catholics to Paganism, who were raised staunchly Catholic, and took sacraments, went to mass, etc. yet met a Pagan friend who told them about a relic or some occult object that they would use to invoke Mother Goddess, who Pagans are fond of claiming was the basis for Rome elevating Mary, and then experiencing some kind of 'miracle' which lead to their conversion to Paganism, where they claim to have found the 'true holy mother'. Testimonies like that are disturbing, to say the least. People likely will experience some kind of 'miracle' if they begin seeking the counsel of anyone but Jesus. There are many new agers who claim to respect Jesus and angels, and have various rituals and items to help them contact 'angels', which is usually based on an unbiblical view of how angels really work and lead them into the whole 'inner light/I am my own angel' type spirituality.
     
    AnglicanTex likes this.
  10. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    1,827
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    American Anglican
    I pray the Rosary often and have not been brought over to the dark side. To the contrary, I find myself more aware and appreciative of the miracle of the Incarnation.
     
    KateOG and Aidan like this.
  11. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

    Posts:
    356
    Likes Received:
    129
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes, but is this the Roman Catholic rosary or the Anglican/Episcopal version? I've used the latter from time to time, but the former is way beyond my personal convictions. I've also heard of some Anglicans praying with the RC rosary but only protestant prayers and not invocations to saints or Mary.
     
  12. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    1,827
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    American Anglican
    I say the traditional Holy Rosary of Our Lady while meditating on the life of Our Lord in the 15 mysteries.
     
    Cameron and Aidan like this.
  13. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    953
    Likes Received:
    567
    Country:
    N Ireland
    Religion:
    Traditional RomanCatholic
    The fifteen mysteries are vital and biblical
     
  14. Achilles Smith

    Achilles Smith Member Anglican

    Posts:
    34
    Likes Received:
    26
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican
    What is the difference between a non-traditional rosary and a traditional rosary? Are the prayers in Latin?
     
  15. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    1,827
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    American Anglican
    Keep in mind that the Rosary has been around since the 13th Century and the Hail Mary much earlier than that, with many additions to it coming well after the English Reformation.

    I pray in English using only the traditional 15 mysteries (the joyful, the sorrowful, and the glorious mysteries)...not the Luminous Mysteries added by Pope JP2 in 2002.

    Here is how I pray:

    INTRO:
    At the cross - "In the name..."
    The Apostles Creed
    The Lord's Prayer
    3 Hail Marys
    The Doxology

    EACH DECADE
    State a Mystery and meditate on it.
    The Lord's Prayer
    10 Hail Marys
    The Doxology

    ...Repeat 4 more times.

    "Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ."

    "Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord, Thy grace into our hearts, that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ Thy Son was made known by the message of an angel, may by His Passion and Cross be brought to the glory of His Resurrection. Through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen."

    The Magnificat
     
  16. Achilles Smith

    Achilles Smith Member Anglican

    Posts:
    34
    Likes Received:
    26
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican
    Thank you Lowly :)
     
  17. David Zelizney

    David Zelizney New Member

    Posts:
    10
    Likes Received:
    4
    Country:
    British Columbia, Canada
    Religion:
    Protestant
    Venerate Mary if you will but do not worship her. Worship God, the Father and his son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. The first commandment.
     
  18. David Zelizney

    David Zelizney New Member

    Posts:
    10
    Likes Received:
    4
    Country:
    British Columbia, Canada
    Religion:
    Protestant
    The Roman Catholic Church attributes miracles and apparitions to Mary and so places her in high esteem sometimes erring by seeming to worship her rather than venerating her as Blessed.
     
  19. Cameron

    Cameron Active Member

    Posts:
    147
    Likes Received:
    152
    Country:
    Newfoundland
    Religion:
    Catholic
    The Church actually attributes miracles to Mary's intercession, not her power alone. Through her aid, her petitions to God, our sovereign master and king, prayers have been answered and miracles have been performed.

    Romans and Anglicans do not in any way worship Mary. We pay her homage as Mother of God, chosen before all creation to bear the logos.

    The Gospel of St John begins with: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. That word is Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity. Surely He would not choose any particular woman without having her in mind with the creation of the world. Surely, her prayer in heaven is the closest to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Surely, the Mother of Our Lord is also our mother, as we are His children.
     
    Aidan likes this.
  20. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

    Posts:
    935
    Likes Received:
    753
    Country:
    America
    Religion:
    Anglican
    Lumen Gentium, #65:
    "Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son"
     

Share This Page