Seminaries and CRT

Discussion in 'Anglican and Christian News' started by Ananias, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    CRT (critical race theory) has been metastasizing over American universities like a particularly virulent form of cancer, and seminaries are increasingly being affected by it. There are the occasional dissenters, but they are increasingly lonely voices in the wilderness.

    I'm getting to the point that I think seminaries do more harm than good to Christian training and witness. There is too much heresy, too many degree mills, and a lamentable fall in overall orthodoxy, not to mention academic rigor.

    This CRT garbage is absolute poison, and if it is not destroyed, it will end up ruining a large portion of the Christian church in America. (Further ruining it, I should say; American Christianity has been in poor shape for decades now.)
     
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  2. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Entirely agree. CRT is simply marxism 2.0, which I don't mean polemically but just from the factual genealogy of who wrote it, and what principles they used. Yes in 1917 it was the Russian Empire, and in 2021 its landfall was in the United States.

    As Christians we've got to understand its principles and explain its radical distance from anything resembling Christian teaching. Seminaries can't be allowed to fall.

    We have to be crystal clear about what CRT means by words like:
    -justice
    -equity
    -whiteness / Black
    -"systemic"
     
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  3. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I understand that there is a point where CRT has simply become a substitute for proper theological reflection. The principle whereby we recognise the theological implications of the Gospel, is somewhat different to reducing the faith to a political movement.

    12% of the US Population (African Americans) comprise 33% of the incarcerated US Population.

    There will be a range of reasons why that may be so:
    • African Americans break the law more often
    • African Americans are treated differently by the courts
    • African Americans can't afford the best lawyers
    • African Americans don't get the same opportunities in education
    • African Americans feel socially disengaged from mainstream America
    And let me hasten to add that facts of the situation in my country are no better. There is a good argument that we should as Christians be concerned abut such disparities and why they occur, and we should want to be onside with wanting to resolve these discrepancies (not simply mask them) . This is a right and proper outworking of our faith.

    Yet it remains that the main purpose of the Church is to point people to God. You don't have to be a Marxist to want a fairer society. Wanting society to be fair and equitable is not the sole preserve of Marxism, and indeed where Marxism has taken hold there is little evidence to suggest that outcomes have been particularly different in terms of equity.
     
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  4. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The problem arises when you define "fair" in human terms rather than Godly terms. God tells us what he wants in Scripture. Our goal cannot be equity or justice in this world, for there is no real justice or equity to be found in the fallen world. We strive instead for God's kingdom, the world to come. We cannot perfect human beings; only God can do that. We are unable to even help ourselves, much less anyone else. Our salvation -- individually and collectively -- comes from the undeserved grace of God, not through any effort of our own.

    The great defect of liberal Christianity, and leftism in general, is that liberals assume that humankind is inherently good and that the only thing required to bring about "social justice" is to remove the cultural and social factors that warp the essential goodness of human beings. (Rousseau is often credited with creating modern liberalism, since he was the fount of this utopian* vision.) But it is a colossal mistake to think so. Mankind is fallen by nature -- wicked, self-centered, arrogant, selfish, lustful, boastful, prideful. We are so wicked by nature that God at one point felt compelled to kill every human being on earth save the devout Noah and his family. "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5).

    There is no justice, no peace, and no equity in the people or governments of the earth. The only peace or justice we will ever find comes through Jesus Christ and his Church.

    If you wish social justice and equity on earth, do your best to live a Godly life, and set an example for your Christian brothers and sisters to do the same. Draw unbelievers to Christ so that they may do likewise. This is the only way.

    *The irony here is that the word "utopia" is drawn from Greek, and literally means "no place".
     
  5. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Yet none of that gives us a licence to pursue that which is unjust or unfair in human terms.

    I concur
     
  6. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    The Church needs to reduce its role in social activism by 99% and increase its role in preaching the gospel by 10000%. If I wanted to hear that Black people were failing because of the eternal, mystical, and evil Whiteman, I could just turn on the television, go to church, go to school, or walk through my neighborhood with all the BLM signs. As someone who has been through the new diverse, equal, accepting, and including American school system, the only thing that schools can teach well today is about the danger of the eternal Whiteman who has his thumb on everything in the country. I had a lady tell me that the "KKK" was forcing Blacks to commit crimes in local communities. Keep in mind that 400 of 400 Klan members in the United States are either FBI agents or informants.

    I no longer have any sympathy for the eternal Whiteman narrative. Everyone should be told to shut up, work hard, have stable families, and become Anglicans.

    How many members does the ACNA have? By how much is the TEC or the CoE growing? How many young people are joining? Don't they love CRT and BLM? Did Christ spend his ministry wailing about the eternal Roman? Does it feel good to virtue signal?
     
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  7. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    This is prideful, because it presumes that we even know what justice or fairness even is "in human terms". Great evil has been, is being, and will be done in the name of "justice" and "fairness" in every corner of the world. Just look at the abyssal evils committed in the Soviet Union and China during the 20th century in the name of "equality" (or Revolutionary France two centuries previous, for that matter). Justice comes of doing God's will, not our own. We care for the poor and the lame and the widows not because it's the nice thing to do; we do it because our Lord commands it. We are not activists or moral crusaders; our works are the expression of our joy and faith in Christ, and our obedience to his commands. We strive to be like Christ was, to love each other as he loved us. But this agape love is most assuredly not the "comradeship of humanity" that liberals and secularists preach. We love our neighbors by carrying God's word into the world, and doing our best to bring about the Kingdom of God. We do not seek to improve or sustain the current fallen world except insofar as it furthers the Christian mission.

    Never forget that liberals mean entirely different things when they use words like "truth", "justice", and "fairness". In nearly all cases, they do not remotely mean these words in the same way that Christians use them. A system that systematically discriminates against black people solely on the basis of their skin color is not wrong because some politician or academic says so; it's wrong because it goes against the commandment of Jesus Christ for us to love our neighbor as ourselves. But the same is true in reverse: discrimination against white people, or any skin tone, is equally bad from a Christian perspective. The whole idea of "structural racism" is based on a flawed predicate -- the only structural flaw is man's fallenness, not a weakness of some political system or other. Everyone is fallen, regardless of the pigment in the skin. We bear our own sin, not the sins of our fathers. Adam and Eve's sin taints the entire human race, to be sure, but we will be judged only on our own deeds, not that of our ancestors.

    Changing the understood definition of words is a standard tool of Marxist philosophy as expressed through the Frankfurt School, by the way -- unilaterally redefining commonly-used words and concepts to mean something else entirely, and then using those words in their newly-redefined sense in discourse and teaching. Marcuse et. al. were masters at this kind of thing. The aim was not clarification, but confusion and misdirection, and you can see all around you the poisonous bounty that ideology has wrought.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
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  8. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Quite the reverse, as it happens.

    Micah 6:8
    He has told us what is good; and what does the Lord require
    but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?​

    Matthew 23.23:
    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practised without neglecting the others.​

    The problem with Marxism may well be that it does not go far enough. The difficulty with liberals is that they often reduce the foundation of the the gospel to a material and political redemption.

    I think the point you are making is that 'structural racism' is not a cause, but a symptom of a flawed/fallen humanity. One obvious outworking of a theology of the Fatherhood of God, is the Family of Humanity. To pursue the Fatherhood of God and not acknowledge the family of humanity is a little remiss, and lacking; yet to pursue the family of humanity without the Fatherhood of God is to come up short.

    The two roles in western society that have been targeted by the left have been education and media. Journalism has given way to opinion peddling, and the right is response simply resorting to alternative opinion peddling. Truth has lost it's objectivity and simply become 'my truth'.
     
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  9. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    The problem with CRT is that it assigns blame or victimhood at the group level. There is very little level for nuance. Yes it is true that there is a legacy of racism in this country. It is also true that as of now there is really very little overt and active racism in this country. All the way to the top is now open to people of all races. When I say there is a legacy of racism in this country I mean that black people are still dealing with slavery and Jim Crow. Less generational wealth and other such things that come with less money and having a family history of low education achievement. So we can acknowledge one while rejecting the latter.
     
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  10. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    There is no “systemic racism”. Let’s just be clear about that.

    Just as there wasn’t 10 years ago, before this term was invented, there even more so isn’t one now. Western societies are literally the most just places on the face of the planet, in the whole history of humanity. Visit african or asian countries and then talk to me about systemic racism.
     
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  11. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    "Justice": you do the crime, you do the time.
    "Social Justice": you do the crime, we look at your skin color; if it's dark you aren't punished, if it's white (pink, actually) we throw the book at you. :loopy:

    Show me the latter concept in the Bible. Nope, not in there...
     
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  12. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I am going to assume this was an attempt at some humour. The concept of Justice if of course far more significant, and indeed a close cousin, of the theological idea of 'justification'. One the one hand this is about the righteousness of God, and on the other hand the salvific metaphor for being set in a right relationship with God, and with each other.

    The small area of Justice which relates to crime and punishment, is about the laws that have been set in place to govern how we are to live together in society, and what must be done to ensure that we abide the the social contract this sets in place, and when we transgress, the duly appointed officer of the court determines the punishment in order that we might be set in a right relationship with society again.

    Social Justice is a much bigger concept of Justice, and really is about the rightness of relationships within our society. The Marxist maxim 'from each according to his ability and to each according to their need' is commendable, if flawed, and fails to account for the human condition, including the need for aspirational goals, and the notion of a fair days pay for a fair days work. The equitable distribution of resources is a question of social justice.

    Some part of this has to do with the equity of opportunity that a society affords its citizens. Where there are glaring discontinuities which can be identified some thought should be given. If a particular group represents a certain percent of the population, and are then underrepresented in the college population, or over represented in the jail population, we should be concerned to understand why, and if something should be done to change those outcomes.

    If the brightest and the best of an ethnic sub-culture within a society are not given the same opportunities in education and employment, then there is a justice issue, and society will be the poorer for it, for it will have denied itself the benefits that they had to contribute to our society.

    Micah 6:8
    He has told us what is good; and what does the Lord require
    but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?​

    Matthew 23:23
    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practised without neglecting the others.​


    I have some trouble accepting this statement in it's current form and without argument.

    Cultures of Discrimination
    Under systemic racism, systems of education, government and the media celebrate and reward some cultures over others.

    In employment, names can influence employment opportunities. A Harvard study found job candidates were more likely to get an interview when they “whitened” their name.

    Only 10% of black candidates got interview offers when their race could be implied by their resume, but 25% got offers when their resumes were whitened. And 21% of Asian candidates got interview offers with whitened resumes, up from 11.5%.

    Systemic racism shows itself in who is disproportionately impacted by our justice system. In Australia, Indigenous people make up 2% of the Australian population, but 28% of the adult prison population.

    A study into how systemic racism impacts this over-representation in Victoria named factors such as over-policing in Aboriginal communities, the financial hardship of bail, and increased rates of drug and alcohol use.

    Australia’s literature, theatres and art galleries are all disproportionately white, with less than 10% of artistic directors from culturally diverse backgrounds.

    https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-systemic-racism-and-institutional-racism-131152

    If the systems in operation in our society produces glaring disparities in outcomes and opportunities on a racial basis or other basis, such as can be simply demonstrated by the data, then there must at the very least be a 'show cause' requirement. Systemic Racism as such is not particular individual racism being displayed, but rather some kind of invisible operation within the system that has a racial bias.

    My view is that we live in societies that do have systemic racism and part of our response to the gospel should be to try where we are able to rectify these inequalities, and support to work of those who are trying to make our societies, better and fairer places.
     
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  13. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    Before God sends someone to Hell, does he ask about their skin color, their family income, and the quality of their education?
     
  14. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    If the systems in operation in our society produces glaring disparities in outcomes and opportunities on a racial basis or other basis, such as can be simply demonstrated by the data, then there must at the very least be a 'show cause' requirement. Systemic Racism as such is not particular individual racism being displayed, but rather some kind of invisible operation within the system that has a racial bias.

    My view is that we live in societies that do have systemic racism and part of our response to the gospel should be to try where we are able to rectify these inequalities, and support to work of those who are trying to make our societies, better and fairer places.

    It is not the current systems in place but a combination of old systems legacies and some sub cultures values. As a whole the system is not set up not to systemically discriminate against non white people. In fact in the American system minorities that move here often excel far beyond whites in the system. Hispanics and African American don't for a variety of reasons but Africans from Africa do excel. Nigerian Americans have the highest education achievement of any group in the US. They use the non discriminatory system we have and they literally thrive while their African American cousins don't seem to thrive. You can't have one group systemically down while the other thrives and for the most part they look a like. There has to be other facts at play here. From what I have seen it is hold out of old systemic systems that kept them down and the culture that arose from that.
     
  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Nope. I'll grant, it was a gross over-simplification. But it's a true description of what's happening today in US society. So, nope, nothing funny about it.
    That is a thoughtful and well-reasoned statement. And in my view it actually supports what I'm trying to point out; maybe I haven't done very well at it, so let me try again.

    The primary thrust of justice in the Bible rests upon our relationship (as individuals) with God, and how that relationship governs our relationships with other people. The root concept, as you note, is that God has provided justification for all those who will believe. By grace through faith we may have a restored, right relationship with Him. As an extension of that, we are joined as 'brothers' and 'sisters' in God's family and are admonished to love one another as Christ loved the Church. We love all human beings, not just those whom we recognize as brothers & sisters in the here and now, for all human beings are loved by God, and any human being might still come to faith in Christ prior to passing away, so every human being is a prospective and potential brother or sister. Besides, we are also counseled to love even our enemies, do good to them, and pray for them (Matt. 5:43-46). To reiterate, Biblical justice has to do with love for God and love for our neighbor (which includes everyone). This is not a corporate action; love is expressed by individuals, toward individuals.

    Even in the area of criminal justice (crime and punishment), people are dealt with as individuals. There's where that old saying, "You do the crime, you do the time," comes into play. We don't put groups on trial, we put individuals on trial and hand out punishment as necessary. We would never convict "straight white men" as a people group of "inherent racism" and punish them all, willy-nilly, on the assumption that every single one of them is guilty. But that is exactly what "social justice" attempts to do.

    And therein lies the problem. It's not Biblical. The concept of justice is definitely Biblical, but the concept of forcing all of society into a condition of justness and equity, balanced and spread out among all people, is absent from the Scriptures.

    These are good scriptures. In each instance, God is calling on individual human beings to govern their moral conduct and their heart attitudes in a godly manner. Granted, Jesus lumped all the scribes and Pharisees together for the sake of brevity, but surely He knew that not every single such person was equally guilty. For example, Nicodemus was a Pharisee, and he seemed interested in doing what's right; surely there were some others. In an exchange like this one, Jesus really is attempting to bring under conviction each person (as an individual) that He is addressing or speaking about in broad terms. That is because each man's relationship with God is personal; it's between himself and God, and the 'collective guilt' of 'Pharisees in general' (or any group one cares to name) is not at issue. Indeed, assigning collective guilt (holding one man accountable for the sins of another) is antithetical to Christianity, for Christ already bore the penalty for all our sins and no one else can (or should) do so.

    I concede that there is unfairness in the world. I concede that some people treat some other people wrongly and act in a discriminatory fashion, and this has always been so; it will continue to be so, because we live in a fallen world filled with sinners, very few of whom are saved by grace (and even the latter are far from perfect). But we must not lose sight of each individual's primary moral duty: to love God and to love his neighbor. This must not be replaced with a new, popular, trendy primary moral imperative of working to liberate "oppressed groups"; that would be a substitutionary perversion of the Gospel. Besides, so-called "oppressed groups" are not homogeneous; the groups contain some individuals who have been oppressed and some who have not been oppressed.

    As far as it goes, I agree that society is flawed. For me, the solution starts with me: am I being fair, unbiased, and loving toward the people I encounter? And can I do anything to encourage a right heart-attitude in others (by way of their entry into a right relationship with God and recognition of His desire for them to walk in love) by my speech, example, and communication of the Gospel message? For US society, the solutions are already largely in place in the form of anti-discrimination laws; perhaps some fine-tuning of those laws is needful now and then, but forced divestiture of one broad group's possessions in favor of another broad group is a gross, crass measure which creates new inequities and hard feelings.
     
  16. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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  17. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    You can actually critique society and culture without believing in CRT as I think CRT is a vile idea and harmful and not Christian.
     
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  18. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Systemic racism is an idea that:
    1. cannot be measured (is incapable of scientific analysis)
    2. is taught in the West as opposed to other places (despite being the only civilization that cares about equality/fairness)
    3. comes after millions of European people fought wars, suffered cruelty, and willingly died, to give others more equality/fairness.

    Thus to even suggest such an idea of systemic racism, to Western societies as opposed to somewhere else, and today after millions of Europeans willingly died to protect liberty, equality and fairness, is a gross injustice and an absurdity.

    That is not to say that Western civilization today acts perfectly. It is only to say, that it acts better than any other civilization. All races are welcome in this Western civilization.

    Furthermore, the concept of "systemic racism" is new (ie. freshly minted and not based on historic ideas), and minted by explicitly Marxist teachers and agitators. So if Marxism is dangerous, then "systemic racism" is dangerous.

    (And by the way, Marxism is also a European thought.)
     
  19. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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  20. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    No, I'm saying that "structural racism" is a ridiculous Marxist concept that has no basis in reality. There is racism in the world, yes, but it is common to all peoples in all nations of the earth. It is a sin. But the "structural racism" that turns even innocents into "racists" simply due to their birth into a given social system is an abominable and heretical teaching that has no place at all in God's church.
     
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