Russia-Ukraine situation

Discussion in 'Anglican and Christian News' started by ralph, Feb 23, 2022.

  1. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    ^^^ What he said.

    When I was first appointed as a liaison to the Latin American churches I did some study to better understand the region. Most Latin American countries have adopted a new constitution 6-7 times since gaining independence from Spain. It becomes fatiguing to keep up with after a while.

    Likewise, there is some portion of sub-Saharan Africa which is perpetually embroiled in civil war. And often, some regional genocide is being perpetrated as well.
     
  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it is fatigue, maybe it is because in the US we identify with Europe more. It also might have something to do with my following international news because I was concerned and followed the Armenian-Azerbizan War and the Ethiopian Civil war and can't understand why others don't
     
  3. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    When we study history, we have a habit of thinking it is about people, events, places and dates (Who-What-Where-When). One of the reasons why we do not learn the lessons of history is because the do not think about the reasons and purposes that gave rise the the events (Why).

    One of the reasons that Putin has given for the invasion of Ukraine is for the de-nazification of Ukraine. Whilst this may be an excuse, there is some evidence of a right wing extremest body having some influence in Ukraine, and the they may have been involved in some human rights abuses in the east of the country against the pro-russian seperatists. The Azov battalion has been clearly tagged with this. This of course is significantly overstated. The far right gained only about 2.5% of the national vote, not enough to get representation in the parliament. Ultimately it would seem this is a pretext rather than a reason.

    Another reason Putin has adavnced, and clearly backed up by Patriarch Kirill is the LGBTQIA issues of Ukraine being important to supress. Whilst it is still a crime in Russia, I don't believe that it is not part of Russian reality. Ultimately Ukraine is no gayer than anywhere else, and if this is the true reason one would imagine this gives Putin the right to invade the whole world. 150 orthodox clergy in Russia have written a joint letter urging Putin to withdraw from Ukriane (Patriarch Kirill was not a signatory). Ultimately this would seem to be a pretext rather than a reason.

    Putin has argued that Ukraine is really part of Russia. That is likely to be part of the mindset, given that Ukraine was part of the former USSR and it was easy to blur the distinction between Russia and the USSR, and seem them a different ways of saying the same thing. In the Eastern part of Ukraine there is a tendency to speak and identify as Russian, and there is clearly an indistinct point of the line on the ground, and that has been so for some time.

    The big thing that has changed is the election of Zelelnskyy. Following the sucess of the TV series 'The Servant of the People' a political party was formed and Zellenskyy was swept into office in 2019. This means that the President of Ukraine owes nothing to any of the Oligarchs - historically the controlling powers behind leadership in Russia and the Ukraine. On the basis of a 'follow the money' stykle of argument this may well be more of a reason.

    Ukraine has been moving closer to the NATO alliance and clearly now wants to be part of it. For Putin's Russia NATO would seem to be the enemy, and the desire to keep of non-NATO states around its Western Border seems to have been part of the insurance that Russia seeks. Od course to recognise the soveriegnty of Ukraine and to believe you have a right to demand that it not be a member of NATO may well be a bit contrdictory, yet here in a messy world we may well see more reason.

    When the Partriarce Bartholomew Oecumenical Patriarche of Constantinople signed into being the autocephalous standing of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church he took something from the Russian Orthodox Church, and from Russia. Given that Putin identifies Russian Orthodoxy with Russia he almost certainly sees that as a deeper loss of Russian control, that we in the west may allow for.

    So it seems that Politics, Sex and Religion are all part of the Russian Invaision of Ukraine. It should remind us all that we are better to seek goodness rather than greatness. Putin seems to have exchanged the pursiot of goodness for the pursuit of greatness, and ultimately will probably achieve neither.
     
  4. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Hey I follow the Ethiopian war . You may be able to help me. Why are Tigray and Eritrea at loggerheads? I would have thought they had more in common against Ethiopia than issues between them. Has the Tigray-Ethiopian war reached a bit of a stalemate lately?
     
  5. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Those may all be Putin's warped reasons for invading the Ukraine. Not one of them is a valid reason. Russia had no right and no need to invade the Ukraine. Thanks to his actions Putin may soon have another NATO member right on his border as Finland are now giving serious consideration to applying for NATO membership. They are concerned Finland may be one of the next countries on this madman's list.
     
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  6. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    https://africanarguments.org/2021/0...y-war-what-we-know-and-why-it-might-backfire/

    It is complicated but this article lays it out in a short answers
     
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  7. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Clearly I agree, and the invasion of Ukraine is, at least from a western perspective, unconscionable. If we are to have any hope of resolution, we must ask what are the justifications that Putin sees, and what are his objectives. It is my firm hope that we have learned the lesson of history from WWII, namely that appeasement is not a solution. You must ultimately conclude that the decision was either irrational, or that it has some purpose in Putin's agenda.

    My view is that he has seriously underestimated the cost of the exercise, including the deploym,emnt of 120,000 troops, and the logistical backup top support that, for eight weeks so far and counting, and he has seriously underestimated the strength of Ukrainian resolve. He probably correctly estimated that the west does not have the stomach for another boots on the ground foreign campaign, yet did not see the full extent of other methods including economic sanctions, though he clearly foresaw some of that had had a cackup plan in Xi Jinping.

    It would be hard to argue that his current actions recognise the sovereinty of Ukraine, however that was true in 2014 with the anexation of the Crimea.

    The lesson of history is that we do not learn the lesson of history.
     
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  8. Niblo

    Niblo Member

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    Agreed. I was being sarcastic.