Questions about Anglicanism

Discussion in 'Questions?' started by Melkite, Aug 26, 2022.

  1. Melkite

    Melkite Member

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    I've been doing some basic online research, and am not easily able to find the answers to some of the questions that I'm looking for. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough, but don't have a lot of time. If anyone can easily answer them for me, or point me in the right direction, I'd be really grateful!

    Is there a family tree I can find for all of the different Anglican denominations, dates that they separated, from whom they separated, current intercommunions, mergers, etc.? I'm also interested in non-Anglican groups that originated in Anglicanism too, like Methodism.

    Is there an easy explanation for the differences in liturgy between the BCP, Anglican Missal and English Missal, and any others? Which denominations use them? Are any based upon the personal preference of an individual priest?

    I've visited an Anglican Ordinariate parish a few times in the past. At first, I thought it was like an English version of the TLM, but the more recent times I've visited, I've noticed there are some parts that are more similar to the NO. I've also read that the Divine Worship: The Missal liturgy is actually a kind of mix of the two. But I'm wondering if it is just a reverent, adjusted liturgy that is more or less the same as currently used by more traditional Episcopal churches (if in the US)? If anyone has any familiarity with the Ordinariates, how similar and different are they to the Anglican Communion and the various Continuing Anglican churches?

    Speaking of the Ordinariates, I know that the Anglican Church of America, and the rest of the Traditional Anglican Communion, was in a deal a few years ago to join the Ordinariates, but that fizzled out. Of the various denominations, which ones tend to be more open to the possibility, and which ones are more committed to remaining as separate Anglican churches outside of union with Rome? Of the high church denominations, are there any that are more Protestant in their theology than others? I have in mind the Anglican Province of America, but I don't know if that is an accurate impression. I visited one of their parishes a few times many moons ago, and got a "High Church, Reformed" feel from it. Not sure if that is typical of the APA or if that was just this particular parish's character.
     
  2. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    I go to a parish in the UECNA which uses the 1928 BCP. The UECNA is generally low to old high in churchmanship (pre-Tractarian). The UECNA holds to the 39 Articles, which isn't all that common in modern-day Anglicanism (at least in America). The Church broke with the TEC over the controversy of women's "ordination" in the 70s.

    Most of the continuing churches are Anglo-Catholic, but many of them (at least around me) still use the 1928 BCP.
     
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  3. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    None that I know of. Therefore, I think you may have to do your own research rather than hope others will. You could use as a starting point the Anglican Communion's website: https://www.anglicancommunion.org/

    I believe all Anglican Churches has their own BCP. In some I think it's the sole authorised liturgy, in other it is not.

    The Anglican Missal and English Missal are slight variations of the same book. They are used by Anglo-Catholics but a lot less than they used to be. They are based on the BCP but add much material from the Roman Catholic Roman Rite as it was before Vatican II.

    I form the impression you are not quite sure what the ordinariates are. For a start they are not Anglican. They are part of the Roman Catholic Church. They were created by Pope Benedict XVI for former Anglicans to come into the Roman Catholic Church, mainly corporately, e.g. parishes, but still for individuals to join. What the Roman Catholic Church allowed was for them to retain a considerable amout of Anglican patrimony in their liturgy and praxis whilst ensuring it fully conformed to Roman Catholic theology. They are Catholics and not Anglicans but do have Anglican Patrimony.

    The Divine Worship Mass has a lot of options which allow it to be very similar to the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. It can also include parts of the liturgy from the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, e.g. the Preparatory Prayers at the foot of the altar, the Last Gospel.

    Divine Worship: Daily Office, published quite recently, contains the Divine Office (a.k.a. Liturgy of the Hours) for the Ordinariate. This is quite close to the Book of Common Prayer with the addition of optional offices of Prime, Terce, Sext, None and Compline. Its distribution of the psalms is the same as in the BCP, i.e. distributed over thirty days, rather than following the four-week ditribution of the current Roman Rite or the one-week distribution of the older Roman Rite.*

    I do not think any Anglican Church was going to wholesale join any of the ordinariates. This would not be possible anyway as the ordinariates are only in three places: UK, North America and Australia. Therefore, there are huge swathes of the Anglican world not covered. Indeed, many Anglican churches were angered by the creation of the ordinariates seeing them as poaching from Anglicanism by the Roman Catholic Church.

    *What I say about Divine Worship: Daily Office relates to what is in the Commonwealth Edition (for the UK and Australia). I am not at all familiar with the North American edition.
     
  4. Melkite

    Melkite Member

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    I figured I would probably have to do the research on my own. But on the off chance someone already did, I didn't want to go to all that trouble to re-invent wheel.

    Thank you for the information you did give. Were there any Anglican groups that were particularly offended by formation of the Ordinariates?
     
  5. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    The Orthodox Anglican Church was founded in 1964. In 1967 the church became an international communion when bishops in Pakistan and India recognized James Parker Dees as their primate. The Orthodox Anglican Communion is now present in about 24 countries and still proclaiming Christ in Word and Sacrament.
     
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  6. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't know about all of them. I suspect the ones most affected would've been the ones who objected the most. I do know the Church of England wasn't at all happy. Of course, the UK is where one of the three ordinariates exist.

    I suspect The Anglican Church of Australia, The Anglican Church of Canada and The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America may have also been unhappy as ordinariates were established in their areas.
     
  7. Melkite

    Melkite Member

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    That makes sense. Now that you mention that, I do remember at the time reading about the member churches of the Anglican Communion being miffed about it. I know this is incorrect, but because the member church in the US is named the Episcopal Church, I tend to only think of Continuing Anglican groups when I hear or see the term Anglican, at least initially.
     
  8. ZachT

    ZachT Well-Known Member

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    I know plenty of people that are still unhappy about it in Australia, no 'have' about it. "Sheep stealing" or something I heard it referred to by an Anglo-Catholic priest who is now retired.

    It personally has never bothered me much. Much as Anglicans were free to develop their own more Roman Catholic rites during the Oxford Movement, I think the RC's are free to make their own more Anglican rites. Plus, in my subjective experience, there's still more Romans swimming the Thames then there are Anglicans swimming the Tiber.
     
  9. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    As I recall, the Romans have a fairly eccentric rule that you cannot become a full member of the Ordinariates if you were previously a Latin Rite Catholic. That was very disappointing for many Roman Catholic traditionalists who had some interest in the new Mass rite.
     
  10. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I concur. I don't think a Latin Catholic* could join an ordinariate. However, there is nothing to stop a Latin Catholic* from completely living her/his faith through an ordinariate church.

    *It's difficult to know what terms to use because ordinariate Catholics are Latin Catholics.
     
  11. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    You'll seldom hear them admit it or describe themselves that way in North America. The clergy especially like to pretend they are sui juris church and Divine Worship is an Extraordinary Form Mass. The US bishop plainly stated when it was authorized that it fell within the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite.
     
  12. Melkite

    Melkite Member

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    Oh, that's interesting. My experience must be unique. The only ordinariate parish I've attended is Mt. Calvary in Baltimore. It was apparently a big center of Anglo-Catholicism in the Episcopal church when the Oxford movement got going. They don't hide that they are Latin Catholics in a Roman Catholic parish. The priest did mention to me, though, that the majority of the parishioners do not come from an Anglican background.
     
  13. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't see that here. Ordinariate members definitely do consider themselves Catholics. Indeed, that's the very reason for joining the Ordinariate so they can become Catholics.

    I think it's hard to say what Divine Worship Mass is. It may be similar to what Pope Benedict XVI envisioned where both forms of the Mass influence the other. there are certainly aspects of the Extraordinary Form that can be included in the Divine Wirship Mass: Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the older form Offertory Prayers, the Last Gospel.

    I wonder if the US bishops have the same reaction to the English and Welsh ones, who definitely do not like the ordinariate.

    I feel somewhat sorry for the ordinariates' members. They felt they had to leave the Anglican Church and become Roman Catholics. To me they don't seem to be warmly welcomed in the Roman Catholic Church.