question for eastern orthodox/roman Catholics

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by mark fisher, Nov 14, 2022.

  1. mark fisher

    mark fisher Member Anglican

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    do you belive anglicans can go to heaven
     
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  2. youngfogey

    youngfogey Member

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    Speaking only for myself, but as far as I know also according to those churches' doctrine, all acting in good faith can be saved.
     
  3. Spiritus

    Spiritus Active Member

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    My personal opinion is, yes Anglicans can go to Heaven. I also believe Anglicans lack some of the fullness of the faith (some more so than others) which may make things harder for them. I believe the same about all Protestants / separated brethren. The RCC's current teaching also lines up with that position.
     
  4. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Unlike the RCC's teaching for the hundreds of years prior to the mid-1900s, that is. Vatican II and the CCC drastically changed that teaching.

    I grew up with a Catechism which essentially taught: yes, technically speaking, a non-RC might possibly make it to heaven, but it's such an extreme long-shot you'd stand a better chance of being hit twice by lightning on a clear day; :rolleyes: whereas, if you die as a RC in a state of grace (no unconfessed mortal sins on your conscience), heaven is pretty much a 'sure thing' :thumbsup: after being purified (don't expect that to be fun & games!) for an indefinite time in Purgatory. (The overall message was: the RCC has the 'inside track' to God, and all other denominations are pretenders led partly astray by the devil.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2022
  5. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Of course I do! Otherwise I'd be a stupid, silly shogger to attend an Anglican church, right? :yes:
    Not that Anglicanism is a golden ticket. The key issue is not to which church :bishop: one belongs, but to Whom :cross: one belongs. :worship:

    .

    John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

    Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith [i.e., belief in Him]. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2022
  6. judd

    judd New Member

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    Yes

    Being Catholic is nice though because the Blessed Mother gets you the hookups
     
  7. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    That's like dialing up the Operator (if you're old enough to remember what that was) and asking to be connected, when you already have the Lord on the other line. :)
     
  8. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Ok, but the vast majority of Christians pray to saints, yet surely are aware that one can also pray solely to God. A practice with that kind of antiquity and universality must have some abiding value, and the Reformation had to go to great lengths to forcefully suppress it. When allowed to develop naturally, Christianity will produce saint-worship. Why do you think that is?
     
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  9. judd

    judd New Member

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    Are you a Rex Ryan fan? Did you see him doing the Rittenhouse on TV yesterday? :laugh:
     
  10. judd

    judd New Member

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    "Worship" is a bit much and I'm not sure I would cop to that... "prayer" works
     
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  11. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Well, prayer is worship, if anything is. Worship is, in any case, the correct term in English: there is worship of veneration, and worship of adoration. “Saint-worship” in the context of historic orthodoxy refers to the former, not to the latter. It’s not intended as a pejorative. My thesis is that a system of piety and devotion that relies on beatified intermediaries will spontaneously sprout up wherever and whenever orthodox Christianity is allowed to exist without State interference. I do not have an explanation for this at present.
     
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  12. judd

    judd New Member

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    REVERENCE.. that’s what I should say

    Veneration yeah.. words… worship is for the Godhead

    nobody is trying to break the first commandment
     
  13. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    In English, “worship” has always had a wide variety of connotations. One could worship a king or queen, one’s parents, an object of romantic love, a saint, or God, all with the different degrees of respect and honour appropriate to their station. That being the case, I simply feel no need to artificially suppress those connotations in order to unnaturally force the word to only refer to God. That’s what more precise terms like “adoration” (Gr. latreia) are for. In any case I was attempting to defend the practice of praying to saints (though I don’t practice it myself).
     
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  14. judd

    judd New Member

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    Just doesn’t feel like the right wording in light of the first commandment… but I totally feel you and appreciate that
     
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  15. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I get that. Our Protestant culture has just compelled us to collectively forget the way our own language was used when all these issues remained open questions, and in many ways cut us off from our own cultural and literary heritage. But if one reads Shakespeare, or Milton, or Donne, or even the King James Bible, those older usages crop up, and it’s important to recognize what those words did and didn’t mean at the time they were written. For instance, Matt. 2:11 in the KJV tells us that the wise men from the east “fell down and worshipped” the child Jesus. To “fall down and worship” here is translated from a case of proskynesis in the Greek, which denoted the homage one would pay to a human ruler in the east (but not in the Greco-Roman world), rather than to a deity. (The Zoroastrians were monotheistic as well.) There are plenty of passages in the NT that point to Jesus being more than a mere human, but Matt. 2:11 isn’t one of them. But one wouldn’t know that if the thought is that “worship” only refers to God. That’s just one example.
     
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  16. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Never heard of him.
     
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  17. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    That statement taps into the fallacy that if the majority do a thing, the thing must be correct. :rolleyes: Gee, let's look at that. A survey of US Christians who attend at least once per month shows that 71% believe Jesus is a created being... a majority must be right, hey? :p

    Forceful suppression? Like, the Protestants burned RCs at the stake for praying to Mary, or what? Come on, stop being ridiculous. :thumbsdown: Yes, over time when allowed to develop "naturally" (led by carnal men) instead of supernaturally (led by the Spirit), Christianity did produce saint worship, and elevation/worship of the Eucharist, and a whole host of messed-up practices... which is why so many of us on the forum are Anglican, not RC.

    Of course, RCs are welcome to join and participate (not proselytize though). And I'm an American, so I will defend the right of any RC to waste his or her time praying to saints. :laugh: I'm still waiting for someone to show me persuasive evidence that deceased people artificially labeled by the RCC as "saints" are able to hear, track, and transmit all incoming requests across the globe. Do they have a bevy of secretaries and assistants to handle the multitude of simultaneous prayers, or what? (Last I knew, only God was omniscient and omnipresent.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2023
  18. judd

    judd New Member

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    We believe the saints are with God already, and that they can amplify our prayers just like we do for each other here on the ground. That's the long and short of it.

    Is that proselytizing? Am I facing suspension already? I have a strong feeling you @Rexlion would not defend my right to do much, given a choice.

    Now do I think every person who's been canonized by the Vatican is really "up there"? Ahhhhh haha I can't say one way or the other .. nor does it matter in my life, Mary is enough for me, the rosary being a core part of my life today.

    I am not well versed enough to tangle at much higher a level on this subject. You are welcome to mock all you want. Will see what kind of civility exists on this board. I have explored becoming an Episcopal because some things about the Catholic faith drive me batty. But I've got proven results through the Blessed Mother, peace and healing that I could not seem to achieve through conventional prayer. Not about to turn my back on that. I don't follow dogma. I choose what I believe, I take what makes sense and try to apply it to my life. Any concept that's antithetical to the simple straightforward teachings of Christ, is total rubbish to me. That includes missives from Paul, portions of the catechism, ancient protestant doctrine, etc.

    Anyway, back to the OP's suggestion, my first answer was meant to be light hearted and I realize yours was too - and I would gladly spend all day on with the phone operator if it was the Mother of God - but I should emphasize that we are taught in catechism not to make any judgment internally or otherwise, on another person's spiritual destination. God will decide who gets mercy, and if we're extra lucky it might just be us, not one of us has earned it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2023
  19. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    With respect, I’m afraid you’re missing the point of my post. I’m not defending prayer to saints per se, or arguing that Anglicans ought to practice it. I was merely asking what you think the motivation is behind why most Christians pray to saints, when they are no doubt already aware that they may also pray solely to God? (I do not confidently claim to know the answer, myself.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2023
  20. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think anything you’ve said here would qualify as proselytizing. There are plenty of Anglicans who pray to saints, use the rosary, etc. It’s not a uniquely Catholic practice. The Orthodox do it to a far greater extent, both quantitatively and qualitatively.
     
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