Non believers are just as "good"

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by AnglicanAgnostic, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    I have just read the thread about Bonobo apes and other threads and I feel I have to write to defend non believers from a general inference from some people that they are less moral or upright than the average Christian.
    As a non believer I don't generally; murder people, have wild unrestrained sex, or steal things. My behavour and I suggest most non believers would actually be applauded by Christians if they (non believers) added the small subset of believe to their lives. In other words their actions are on a par with Christians. I am not allowed legally to discriminate against Christians (and rightly so) but Christians are generally allowed to disciminate against non believers. In the USA non believers are the largest group that are allowed legally to be disciminated against.
    There is a lot of angst here against pro gay groups or other various "human rights" causes but I feel being a N.B. is only incidental to these causes. Just because I'm a N.B. doesn't mean I'm pro gay or premarital sex or any other particular cause such as legalised prostitution. I bring up prostitution because recently here in NZ a church objected to a brothel opening up because it was near a primary school. The brothel proponents reposted that young children were probably at more risk from church people (also nearby) than brothel clients and practitioners and in all honesty I tend to agree with them.
    Most non believers are not evangelistic , non believers are not your enemies "indifference" is.
    I have read a report-study-survey from America about non believers and Christians behavour and they found a fly on the wall would not be able to tell a Christian and a N.B. apart except the Christian went to a particular building on Sundays. Both groups are just as likely to steel, watch pornography, and cheat on their spouses. These interesting stat's were mentioned in the "Hypocrites" chapter of the report.

    Just my little rant, I feel better now.
     
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  2. Theistgal

    Theistgal New Member

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    I agree! Many of the kindest, most moral people I've known have been self-professed nonbelievers. :)
     
  3. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't take it as a question of this or that person being just as good, but rather all of them put together, the whole Atheist Culture being just as good

    ---- and there I would ardently disagree with any attempt to paint atheist cultures as good, when they have all been without excpetion, evil, and our American culture too becoming more evil by the day

    Atheism is evil, even if this or that atheist may be good (by accident, or by borrowing virtues from Christianity)
     
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  4. Religious Fanatic

    Religious Fanatic Well-Known Member

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    I don't generally like them either. The best one are the ones who are not aware or immersed in the fundamental conclusions of atheism i.e.; they aren't really as atheist as the ones you mentioned from the communists. Yes there are some nice ones here and there, but on a general scale, not really. There's also this study:
    https://phys.org/news/2017-08-atheists-thought-immoral-fellow.html

    I want to make a note that most of the times I know who is atheist and who isn't. Most Christians who are no different than seculars are just nominal ones. Atheism has never had the same kind of altruistic champions as Christendom has, therefore I do believe the most kindest Atheists would pale against the best examples of Christians.

    Bill Gates was once touted as a champion of Atheist charity, but now he is acknowledging that it makes sense to believe in God and is influenced by his Christian relatives, including his wife. Jesus says these people are 'not far from the kingdom of God', but those indoctrinated with the deepest aspects of atheist dogma such as Dawkins or Harris are quite far from this spectrum.
     
  5. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    You have demonstrated the confused attitude that many have in the USA. Non-belief is not atheism. Atheism is Un-belief not non-belief. Non-belief is simply what you do not have before believing in something.

    Un-belief is a belief, that something others believe in, does not exist or warrants belief by the unbelieving.
    .
     
  6. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    From Bible hoarders link (https://phys.org/news/2017-08-atheists-thought-immoral-fellow.html)

    Only in Finland and New Zealand, two secular countries, did the experiment not yield conclusive evidence of anti-atheist prejudice, said the team.

    Yea [​IMG]

    Maybe N.Z. is liberal, I know Mormon missionaries are advised that N.Z.ers think nothing of living together, no one cares about it. Even our Prime Minister has had a baby with her partner (a word commonly used here) and they aren't married. I've never even heard their unmarried status being mentioned.

    I think non believers culture is a bit like non Trump supporting culture , non rap music culture, or non vegetarian culture, ie it's not really a culture at all.

    Anti Atheist prejudice is possibly because Christians are perceived as being better than they actually are.
    I know there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics". How many Choir masters that molest children are Christians? Probably a high percentage as Christians make up a high percentage of choir masters.

    Got to go out now but like Arnie " I'll be back"
     
  7. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Not withstanding Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." If these groups do do evil it is almost incidental to their being Atheistic. Similar to that group that no one expects , the Spanish Inquisition, I wouldn't tar all Christians with that brush. The nearest thing to an atheistic organisation here (NZ) is probably the skeptics society, and all they say is they don't think there are any supernatural forces in existence, but they are open to evidence to the contrary. They even invited a psychic to talk to them. They don't have a

    "There shall be no derogatory statements about Scripture, such as that it is erroneous, not the word of God, or teaches anything but the truth."

    type of attitude.

    Many atheist's attitude is merely "I don't think there is a God" like you might think there is no life out in space. I am an Agnostic which to me merely means "I don't know"

    From Bible Hoarders link
    "Distrust of atheists was "very strong in the most highly religious states like the United States, United Arab Emirates and India," said Gervais, and lower in more secular countries."

    Gosh I wonder if you could glean that information from this forum?

    And I would just like repeat and re-emphasise the study I read states the actions and life style of Christians and non believers cannot be differentiated apart from the fact Christians go to church.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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  8. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Jean Rousseau believed that "man is a being who is naturally good." He thought that humans are born as naturally moral and benevolent, and that man's impulses are naturally just and correct, which makes those impulses moral. Rousseau arrived at this conclusion because he felt great longing for the esteem of others and societal pressure to conceal his true nature: "One does not dare to appear as what one is. And in the perpetual constraint, men who make up this herd we call society, placed in the same circumstances, will all do the same things, unless more powerful motives prevent them. Thus, one will never know well the person one is dealing with." Thus, Rousseau sought to escape feelings of judgment and shame, so he came to feel that the key lay in 'living authentically,' listening to his own heart and acting "only in accord with his impulses and reason." If man is naturally good, then man does not naturally have evil inclinations, and this natural goodness makes all of man's actions benevolent so long as he means well. Rousseau said, "I give myself to the impression of the moment without resistance and without scruple; for I am perfectly sure that my heart loves only that which is good."

    Under this type of thinking, if a man commits adultery with a married woman, he does no wrong so long as his motives are pure. And if a man commits pedophilia, he does no wrong so long as he is motivated by love for the child. This is a highly subjective measurement, since one man's morality is another man's immorality. Each person becomes a god unto himself, deciding what his conscience will permit, and in the process he often deceives himself. It is a poor standard of morality, for in fact it is no "standard" at all.

    In contrast, God lays out a specific morality with well-defined boundaries. Yet we see that man is no match for God's definition of morality (perfect behavior), because man is not "naturally good" as Rousseau thought, but instead man is naturally bad. Genesis 6:5 says, And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. God gave mankind the Law of Moses (Ten Commandments) primarily to demonstrate conclusively to mankind that man is in no way equipped to be morally upright and is in desperate need of a Savior. The Law pointed the way toward the coming Messiah, who gave His life to redeem from the penalty of sin all who would accept the gift of redemptive grace by faith in Christ. Jesus provided for us what we could never provide for ourselves: true moral purity. Paul, one of the most morally upright men of his time, explained how precious this gift is when he wrote in his letter to the Philippians:
    Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
    Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
    Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
    Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
    Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
    Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
    Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    Paul recognized that his own attempts at self-righteousness were as dung. Crap!

    The cited study makes a fundamental error: it confuses the appearance of morality with actual morality. Anyone can work hard at appearing moral, but true morality resides not in one's actions but in one's heart. Paul recognized that even his previous life of upright living did not make him truly moral. Even as a Christian, with the Holy Spirit living inside him, Paul faced a continual battle to "put the body under subjection" and resist yielding to temptations. But the key difference which distinguished Paul's later life from his earlier life, and the key difference between a Christian and a non-believer, is the gift of God's own righteousness which is imputed to the believer when he comes to trust in Jesus Christ. You see, in God's eyes we have been made perfect through Christ; God will not tolerate unrighteousness, but He loves us so much, He arranged to extend His own perfect righteousness to us if we would believe Him and trust Him with our lives.
    2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
    Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Loving God wholeheartedly and loving others perfectly are goals the Christian is counseled to strive toward. Do any succeed! Not a one of us is completely successful at it. And while some strive greatly, most strive weakly... and some may appear to strive not at all. Yet the common thread running through each and every true believer is the blood of Jesus applied to our inner beings, by which we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to counsel and guide us (if we will listen!!) and the promise of eternal life. Every person in the world needs this, even the self-righteous person who thinks he is moral enough and good enough that, if there be a God, surely (the person reasons) a loving God would not condemn him. For God has set in place a door by which each person must enter, and no other entry is possible; and that door is Jesus Christ. Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep... I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:7,9)

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  9. JoeLaughon

    JoeLaughon Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The rates of abuse in prostitution are so dramatically higher than even the worst abuse-ridden church. It's a fatuous objection from those who profit from an industry of commodification and systemic violence.
     
  10. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I wanted to zero-in on that, because I see it cited too much without critical thinking

    It all depends on what the study measures, and what "moral criteria" it uses, doesn't it?... If we redefine moral criteria to classify a love of sodomy suddenly to be a moral virtue, then rejecting sodomy makes one wicked, yes?... And that is why I've seen "modern studies" argue that atheists are actually more virtuous than Christians, because they celebrate and champion people who engage in sodomy, whereas Christians do not...

    Now I'm glad that at least in your study the Christians are not evil, but merely non-differentiated, but the question still stands.. what exact moral characteristics are they measuring here? It is known for a fact that Christian communities are far more charitable; they will not kill a baby in the womb, and they will not kill an elderly man who isn't "useful" to society -- and atheist societies will, and already do!
     
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  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Hypocracy is the stock in trade of some of the ultra religious. They come more under condemnation by Christ than the run of the mill, mere 'sinner', because they should know better. Christian Discipleship is not about having become good, it is about becoming better after having experienced God's Grace to sinners. That Grace is as freely available to NB's as it is to believers. It is just that NB's do not appreciate it, nor feel obligated to reform their ways concerning their condemnation of others, as an appropriate response to the Grace they have been shown by God. They are oblivious to God's Grace.

    Therein lies the difference. It is not a difference of actual moral fibre, but a difference in motivaton.

    God knows the heart's intent.
    .
     
  12. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Yes you are possibly right here.

    Instead of attributing these things to Atheists perhaps we should blame these groups; over 18 year olds, medical professionals, people who drink milk, non Muslims and maybe also those people who like J.S. Bach. I'm sure people who kill babies and elderly men are in my suggested groups. Ok maybe not the Bach fans.

    Well this is your lucky day let me quote from the Barna group's book "Unchristian", and who are the Barna Group?

    From Wikipedia "The Barna Group is an evangelical Christian polling firm based in Ventura, California"

    and from their site
    "Barna Group is a visionary research and resource company located in Ventura, California.
    Started in 1984, the firm is widely considered to be a leading research organization focused on the intersection
    of faith and culture."
    and from one of their blogs
    "When people ask me what it’s like to work at Barna, I can’t help gushing about how amazing it is to see – at a 30,000-foot level – the ways in which God is moving all across the world and the great work that churches, ministries and non-profits are doing in his name.


    In one study conducted by our firm, we explored more than one hundred variables related to values, behaviours, and lifestyles, including both religious and non religious areas of life. We compared born-again Christians to non born again adults. We discovered that born-agains were distinct on some religious variables, most notably owning more Bibles, going to church more often, and donating money to religious nonprofits (especially a church). However when it came to non-religious factors - the substance of people's daily choices, actions, and attitudes there were few meaningful gaps between born-again Christians and non-born-agains. Christian emerged as distinct in the ares people would expect - some religious activities and commitments - but not in the other area of life. (pg 46)

    and from pg 47

    In virtually every study we conduct, representing thousands of interviews every year, born-again Christians fail to display much attitudinal or behavioural evidence of transformed lives. For instance based on a study released in 2007, we found that most of the lifestyle activities of born-again Christians were statistically equivalent to those of non born agains. When asked to identify their activities over the last thirty days, born-again believers were just as likely to bet or gamble, to visit a pornographic website, to take something that didn't belong to them, to consult a medium or psychic, to physically fight or abuse someone, to have consumed enough alcohol to be considered legally drunk, to have used an illegal nonprescription drug, to have said something to someone that is not true, to have gotten back at someone for something he or she did, and to have said mean things behind another person's back.
    No difference.
    One study we conducted examined Americans' engagement in some type of sexually inappropriate behaviour , including looking at online pornography, viewing sexually explicit magazines or movies, or having an intimate sexual encounter outside of marriage. In all we found that 30 percent of born-again-Christians admitted to at least one of these activities in the past thirty days, compared with 35 percent of other Americans. In statistical and practical terms, this means the two groups are essentially no different from each other. If these two groups of people were in two separate rooms,and you were asked to determine, based on their lifestyles alone, which room contained the Christians, you would be hard pressed to find much difference.



    I have taken the liberty of "correcting" some of the above spelling.

    I am not trying to give the impression that Christians are ever so slightly less than perfect angels, but just that non believers are also just as ever so slightly less than perfect angels.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    We are ALL, at least, slightly imperfect. Some more slightly than others, but all have sinned and will continue to be inclined that way until death robs us of the opportunity to sin and also the ability through moral fibre to decide not to sin. After death our days of sinning and the struggle not to, are all over.

    The major difference between 'believers' and non- and un-believers is not any kind of moral superiority but rather an invisibly, more informed conscience, led by the prompting of The indwelling Holy Spirit, rather than dictated by instinct and the lust of the flesh.

    Not surprisingly among believers, and non believers alike, success at living the 'life of the Spirit' is patchy, to say the least, though believers as a subset of humanity probably come out on top by a small margin. It is just as well that we are not saved by our 'works of the law' or 'supposed 'moral superiority'.

    We are saved by God's Grace, through faith.
     
  14. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Some quotes that bear upon the subject:

    “…evils are not caused by God; rather, that they are a part of the nature of matter and of mankind; that the period of mortal life is the same from beginning to end, and that because things happen in cycles, what is happening now — evils that is — happened before and will happen again.”
    ― Celsus

    “I am reminded of the query made about man's inhumanity to man in the concentration camps. The question was asked: At Auschwitz, tell me, where was God?
    And the answer came: Where was man?
    For it was men alone who did this evil. Not God or religion or men acting in the name of God or religion. But simply men.”
    ― Glenn Meade, The Last Witness

    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
    -- The Bible, Romans 3:23
     
  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    The most basic distinction between a believer and an unbeliever is.... their beliefs.

    But we could go a bit further. What we believe will usually affect what we think, say, and do. For example, if one believes that it will be below freezing, one is likely to take a warm coat when going out.

    When a person believes that Christ gave His mortal life for his (the person's) sake, one might suppose that the person will act differently in accordance with his belief. However, there are some problems:
    1. The person's belief may be strong or weak (on a sliding scale, one might say), and thus a person who rarely thinks about what God has done for him is less likely to act upon the belief than a person who frequently meditates upon the word of God. Humans are forgetful. Our brains 'leak' information.
    2. A person is subject to frequent distractions and enticements; the cares of wordly life and the temptations which he encounters on a fairly constant basis can lead him to act contrary to his helief.
    3. Beliefs about distant events (such as the long-past death & resurrection of Christ or the person's eventual death and judgment to come) tend to take a 'back seat' to more immediate events and concerns. (Christians come in hot, lukewarm, and cold varieties.)
    4. In the alternative, the person may have formed only a partial mental assent to the concept of a saving God, or he may have a habit of attending church (it comfort them, or it's a family tradition, or whatever) such that he self-identifies as Christians without having actually become a true, born-again believer in Christ.
    For these (and perhaps other) reasons, the beliefs of a Christian (or one who identifies as such) do not always, and indeed they often do not, produce corresponding actions. Does this more likely indicate a flaw in the belief, or in the flaws of the person? Is not the latter a most obvious conclusion? For we are reminded often, perhaps hourly if not daily, of our own imperfections.

    Therefore, whether Christian belief is grounded in a sound basis cannot be accurately gauged by observing the behavior of Christians; the behavior on a macro scale will (almost of necessity) be inconclusive.

    AA, if I may ask the obvious questions :) (I am curious).....
    • Why are you agnostic?
    • The Bible (both OT and NT) contain accounts of miraculous events attributed to a living God. Do you discount all of them as works of fiction?
    • Do you see any evidence of an orderly creation in the intricacy of such things as the earth's ecosystem, the varieties of species, the specialized organs and cells (such as those that comprise the human eye, for example), or the vastness of a seemingly finely-tuned universe?
    • Millions upon millions of people claim or have at some time claimed that they have/had encountered God in a personal way; how would you account for their experiences?
    I'm sure you have powerful reasons for believing as you do; would you mind sharing them with us? :tiphat:
     
  16. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Firstly, I class Agnostic as "don't know" and as I've gone through life nothing has jumped out and hit me saying believe.

    Yes and no, some of the miracles may be attributed to natural phenomenon, some of them may be to human action. I have seen Dynamo the magician walk on water and produce heaps of fish from a bucket perhaps not enough to feed a crowd with 5000 men in it. I doubt the sun moving backwards miracle and such like. The thing I find most unusual about miracles is, God seems to limit himself to medical miracles only nowadays.
    Don't put it on the net or anything but yes I do. The varieties of species worries me, with the vast number of species around today and 99%
    of all species extinct. I would have thought with this vast number and only a mere 4000 or is it 200 million years for it to happen I would have thought the, new species per year ratio, would result in new species appearing during historical times but it would appear not.
    And yes the world does seem to be organised by a personality, but if I was convinced of this theory, that doesn't mean the Christian God is the architect
    I'll admit the validity of this arguement, I think it is disingenous of people to say these people have delusions or their minds are playing tricks on them. Hey it could be me that has those problems. I was impressed with a Christian on a forum who told me God was more real to him than the keyboard in front of him and I have to accept this as true despite what I might think.
    I also think it is not a satasfactory answer to ask about the millions who also had the same encounters with God and became Muslims or Mormons etc.
    Sorry to dissapoint you but I don't have powerful reasons for my beliefs. This is why I never get agro about your or others beliefs. I just find the general topic interesting but don't have a vested interest in it.
     
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  17. tstor

    tstor Member

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    I wanted to comment on your earlier post as well as this one. Responding to @anglican74 's statement that "atheist societies" aren't as charitable, will kill babies in the womb, and will kill elderly, you stated that perhaps the blame shouldn't be placed on atheists. Rather, it would be more appropriate (perhaps) to place the blame on specific categories of people within society. To be sure, this isn't an inherently bad response. We wouldn't blame the entire states of Utah or Arizona for the uptick in polygamy just because Mormon fundamentalist communities happen to exist in those areas. However, I would say that atheism and secularization go hand-in-hand. Societies, especially those of an occidental character, have increasingly drifted (dare I say sprinted) toward secularization: remove Christianity from the public square, give the state increasing control, separate children from their families with compulsive public education, etc. This secularization necessarily has oriented Western minds toward rationalism and naturalism. Look at the curriculum in public schools: memorize dates, events, names, the periodic table, evolutionary biology, etc. Regardless of what one thinks about these things, note that the emphasis in education in the West is squarely on rationalism and naturalism. Nothing philosophical is ever even touched.

    With all of that said, we should consider the incentives a society has as it embraces atheism. I'd argue the incentives lead us to the items in the original list, i.e. aren't as charitable, will kill babies in the womb, and will kill elderly.

    This is one area where I have tended to agree with Richard Dawkins. "Agnosticism" doesn't really make any sense as a label. Very few people would claim to know that God doesn't exist. What is typically claimed is what you stated: "nothing has jumped out and hit me saying believe." This is the same reasoning used by most people when it comes to unicorns, fairies, or even the celestial teapot. One cannot emphatically claim that unicorns do not exist. However, one can say "nothing has jumped out and hit me saying believe." In other words, it is perfectly sensible to live as if x doesn't exist so long as there are no good reasons to affirm x's existence. That is not the same thing as claiming to know x doesn't exist. We are all technically agnostic on the issues of unicorns, fairies, dragons, etc. Though it makes little to no sense to phrase it that way since we live our lives as if those things don't exist.

    I know the miracles we typically think of in the Bible are like the ones you named, but what're your thoughts on Biblical prophecies? I find the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem found throughout the NT to be particularly powerful.

    It is true that recognizing intentional creation doesn't mean the revelation of Scripture is, well, revelation! Natural theology, if you will, can at best give a rational basis for belief in God. We can recognize a creator in the cosmos. Your ability to recognize that is great! I encourage you to not lose sight of it.

    It is true that individuals of other religious faiths do claim to have encounters with God. I haven't personally spoken to many Muslims, so I will not be so presumptuous as to assume to know what they claim. I have met my fair share of Mormons though. They encourage those who read the Book of Mormon to pray to God so that He may reveal Himself to them and confirm the truth of their teachings. Of course, they all claim to have received this confirmation. I am not of the mind that "spiritual" experiences of this sort are really any different from spiritless philosophical convictions. Both are vacuous. One can believe wrong or bad things on the basis of spirituality in the same way that one can believe wrong or bad things on the basis of naked philosophy. Christianity, while making appeals to both, never sacrifices one or the other. I would argue that other religions/convictions must make sacrifices at some point or other.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
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  18. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for satisfying my curiosity, AA :yes:

    Medical miracles might actually not be the most prevalent IMO, but they probably are the most obvious (most visible? most readily attributable?) type of miracle. Other miracles are less so; for example, I'm reminded of the tornado that came through here a couple years ago. The warnings went off, we got into the tornado shelter (made of 1/4" steel plate and securely bolted down) in our garage and prayed, and a minute later we could hear the tornado like a constant thunder. After it passed we came out and everything was fine. We got back to watching the tv meteorologist's blow-by-blow broadcast and learned that the tornado came right toward us, then a couple miles to our SSW it lifted into the air and went overtop our neighborhood, then 2 miles NNE of us it dropped back down and resumed tearing off roofs and stuff. Of course such a thing can be easily dismissed as happenstance (or luck?), so there's no way to prove that a miracle occurred.

    I daresay that the very greatest and the most prevalent miracle of all (which likewise cannot be 'proven') happens hundreds if not thousands of times daily... it's a mind-blowing miracle every time a lousy, dirty, undeserving sinner repents of unbelief and is graced with God's own righteousness. God made me righteous and acceptable in His sight?? It would have been easier to make a turd smell like sweet roses! :blush:
     
  19. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Welcome to the forum tstor.
    Would it be helpful if I suggested good Atheists don't kill babies and old people and bad Atheists do, just as bad Christians do?
    Even more so in your case "And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness."
    Isaiah 34:7 KJV
    I have problems with Biblical prophecies, such as the prophecy that Elijah will reappear before the Messiah and Christians then have to settle for a "stand in" Elijah, or Mat 2:23 "So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene", and there ain't any apparent statements to this effect. I'm sure there are other problem prophecies that don't come readily to mind.
    And the other religions /convictions would probably say the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  20. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Rexlion I think the word miracle has been downgraded of late, it's a miracle that some sports teams have a late come from behind win, but we probably don't attribute that to God. I assume you attribute it to God that the tornado passed over your house. But why did God then 2 miles NNE of you drop the tornado back down and resumed tearing off roofs and stuff?

    I've no real comment to say about this but I can appreciate what your saying:)
     
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