Modern errors

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by Empty, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Empty

    Empty Member

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    New member here. I read all the FAQ and terms when I signed up to join the forum, but I have a question on the "Modern Errors" section.

    My question is the item listed as "Ordination of Women". I understand this is not conferred from Holy Scripture, but do not understand it as prohibited by Anglicanism. I watch prayer from Canterbury Cathedral and the evening office is often led by a lady Vicar.

    Any comment/advice is gratefully appreciated.
     
  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is for sure a modern error. IN this forum we are against it and as is most of conservative Anglicanism in the US. None of the continuum ordain women and most diocese in the ACNA don't either.
     
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  3. Empty

    Empty Member

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    So it is mainly the Church of England that ordains women?
     
  4. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    No. Most of the Anglican Communion/Canterbury Communion does. This includes many provinces in Africa, SE Asia, Australia & New Zealand, and all North American affiliates, as well as the several churches in the UK itself. It is also true of any S. American province that was spawned by or came under the influence of the US Episcopal Church. Overall, women's ordination has been more common than not since the 1990s.
     
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  5. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    And that right there says it: "since the 1990s," a new innovation, as opposed to more than 1,900 years of established understanding and practice within the church! :liturgy:
     
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  6. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    That’s debatable. In terms of raw numbers, the Church of Nigeria is by far the largest Anglican Province, and it doesn’t. The Diocese of Singapore which is easily in the 1-3 fastest growing, and in the 1-3 biggest in numbers, also doesn’t. Etc.

    Even 10 years ago I would say the momentum was still on the pro-WO side (as for most Christians). But things have drastically shifted since then. Even in a contested ground like the American anglican scene I don’t know anyone who was a strong traditionalist but then became pro-WO. On the other hand I know those who were pro-WO and have become traditionalist. The seismic shift is subtle yet pretty unmistakable.


    And yet the orthodox Anglican jurisdiction in the UK, doesn’t ordain women.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  7. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I would not take any of the sacraments from a woman as I don't believe that they can actually convey the sacraments to me.
     
  8. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    I was counting provinces, which is the usual method of examining this question. Yes, Tanzania, Nigeria, and a handful of others have not begun the practice. However, whenever it first takes hold in a province it spreads, rather quickly. It's really only in the case of smaller Lutheran groups that the practice has ever been discontinued once it started.

    There's more than one. They are all tiny though.
     
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Anything you don't do in faith is sin, so fair enough. Gal.3:22, Rom.14:23.
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  10. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I hope you’re seeing the double standard. If it’s pro-WO, then it’s “by provinces”, and if it’s anti-WO, then it’s “by the numbers”. You’re right though, it is the usual way of counting, because it’s been framed by the crafty and slick media outlets funded by the Episcopal Church over the last 20 years. They’ve crafted the slick way to frame it in a way that will be always positive for them. But we should reject it. By the raw numbers of world Anglicanism, it is 70 to 80% anti-women’s ordination. And even in big establishment jurisdictions like the Church of England, there are now competing jurisdictions which return to not ordaining women.
     
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  11. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Church of England and most of the other Anglican churches now ordain women.

    They should not because there are sound theological arguments against it.

    The reasons they give for ordaining women is based on social justice concerns and not on theological arguments.

    The sacraments were instituted by Christ and the church has no power to change them.

    Not only did the Church of England inappropriately allow women to be ordained it did it in an inappropriate way. If they chose to ordain women they should have made all three degrees of holy orders available to them from the time they made their decision. I think to say they would allow women to be ordained deacons and see how things went was disgusting. When the sky did not fall in they then allowed women to be ordained priests. After another interval they decided to ordain them as bishops. While the church should not ordain women introducing it in this was a disgrace and in my opinion an insult to women. I do not know if any other Anglican church introduced the ordination of women in this way; however, knowing Anglicanism I suspect they did.
     
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  12. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Just as there are sound theological arguments for it, but they are forbidden to be promoted or presented in this internet forum.

    We hear a lot about fake news now. Well this is a fake statement, propagandising by insinuating there was no proper debate in synod concerning the theological aspects of WO. Anti WO 'traditionalists' lost the argument against WO in synod and the decision was not based entirely on social justice concerns, (right though it is that believing Christians should take account of them). Neither are anti WO adherants all completely unconcerned about social justice and gender equality in Christ. That would be an exaggeration.

    No sacraments have been 'changed'. It matters not one whit whether the prayer of consecration is said by a man by a woman or by an evil sinning pedophile, God is no respecter of persons and it is God who makes the sacrament a sacrament, and the believing sinner who validates the receiving of it, not the gender of the presider. Acts 10:34. Article 26, Article 6, Articles 20 and 21.
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    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    And most others that are actually IN the Anglican Communion. The majority of those which are anti WO are not but only see themselves as being the Anglican Communion.

    The woman you see doing the office could also be a Licenced Lay Minister, LLM, not ordained. Fully entitled to lead Evening Prayer, Morning Prayer, preach, teach and preside at burials of the dead.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  14. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Though not actually true, this statement deserves consideration by the church. Are we, the church, to surmise that tradition is more important a guide to praxis than is social justice? Are we, the church, supposed to work towards or away from increasing social justice in the world? Is not praying for God's Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven, not praying for justice to 'roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever flowing stream'. Amos 5:24.

    When faced with a gross injustice the church must speak out and when that injustice is perpetuated within the church itself, it must confess it and repent. It must confront those in power. Called to side with the victims, the church cannot advocate that oppressor and oppressed be reconciled, until oppression stops. Only when justice is established can there be a settled peace. Therefore the church's first task is to agitate for justice, rather than urge for an end to protest and contention; to call for peace while injustice remains is to collude with injustice. The church militated against the subjugation of women in society when Paul first made it clear that there is no 'male' or 'female' divide in Christ no salvation hierarchy vis a vis men and women. Both are equally 'saved' by his blood and rendered sinless by imputation.

    The church, (or at least the true part of the visible church) militated against slavery and called for its abolition. The church, (or at least the true part of the visible church), militated against the debarring of women to higher education. The church, (or at least the true part of the visible church), recognised practice of medicine and law, trades guilds and professions and work of all kinds, previously closed to women by men but now enriched by their contribution, intelligence and skills. Two world wars proved men wrong in most of their prejudices against female ability and intelligence. Why should the church not consider an all male priesthood, specifically perpetuated and maintained by men, (though instituted originally by God without specifically debarring women, merely by social default of custom at the time, the 12 being undeniably all exclusively both male, Jewish and not, at that time, highly educated in the ways of God's Kingdom.

    The church is not the church when it denigrates reform of the world's ways and supports the injustices inherent in the ignorance of gender differentiation and exclusivity of male privilege.
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    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    "Social justice," a modern innovation, has no place in sound theology.

    There is a reason why we don't have "God the Mother." God showed His will (His best plan for us) when He set up a patriarchal system, with Himself as the chief patriarch. God made Adam (man) first and made Eve (woman) second as a helper to the man (not for man to be woman's helper). When God designated the Aaronic priesthood, He chose all men to serve Him. When Jesus chose the Twelve, He chose all men once again. The pattern is as plain as the nose on one's face.
     
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  16. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    By HIS blood. I’m glad that you’ve realized that. His manhood matters to God, just like Adam’s manhood mattered. Humanity was forsaken by a man, and saved by a man. Priest is to the church as a husband is to the wife. The entire household is considered Christian if the man is, because he’s the head of the household. Woman was made in the image of man. Etc. Manhood and womanhood are eschatological categories.


    Social justice is a literally fake category that didn’t even exist before the 1950s.
     
  17. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    One might as easily say that the Kingdom of God is a modern innovation. No one had heard much about it until God himself turned up to tell us about what it should be like. We have been learning ever since he went back to where he came from and left the church to get on with the job of telling the world about it. Odd that until Jesus turned up on earth scripture was entirely written by men, rules and regulations were entirely written and enforced by men, women were not supposed to be disciples and listen to God's words, and men ruled the roost. It seems that men were almost entirely those whom Jesus considered ignorant of God's will and lacked understanding of the Kingdom of God, which most of them didn't even understand properly when it was explained to them. Only later did they eventually catch on.

    Not very good leadership qualifications until we all received The Holy Spirit through Christ's atonement. Since the men refused to believe the women when told of the resurrection they wouldn't have even made effective evangelists without the women insisting they had seen Jesus alive and him actually turning up to prove it to the disbelieving MEN. So much for 'patriarchy'. :laugh:
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  18. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Female leadership actually fits in quite well with the non-liturgical churches who don't put any stock in apostolic succession and who don't pay any mind to tradition. For those who value the latter elements, though, it doesn't fit the pattern Christ gave us. Things might be different if Jesus had appointed Mary Magdalene to be one of the Twelve, but He didn't.

    Social justice encompasses a sense of societal debt to any group that is (seemingly) disadvantaged. Since women were not ordained as priests for nearly two millennia, some people interpret that as a 'disadvantage' and an 'injustice' to be rectified. To properly rectify it would require preferring women over men in ordinations for several centuries, while ignoring other (more trivial?) differences such as God's calling and actual suitability for ministry; and we'd need to establish and fill quotas of female ordinations in all denominations (not just Anglicanism) if we wanted to 'repair' this grave social injustice.

    By the same type of reasoning, we'd need to establish preferential quotas for ordination of homosexuals. Preferential quotas for people of certain racial/ethnic backgrounds would be demanded. Preferential quotas for atheists (they've been horribly discriminated against in the ordination process, don't ya think?) would soon follow. Preferential quotas for transvestites will obviously be required, too. It will be the Rainbow Inclusive Church of Mankind. But God won't be allowed because He's too bigoted, discriminatory, and old-fashioned patriarchal. :doh:
     
  19. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Patriarchy

    There is a patriarchal tradition expressed in Holy Writ, however to affirm that as the whole of the matter is fraught, for there is also a strong egalitarian tradition expressed, all be it not as loudly. Given that the history tradition and culture of the historic communities in which the story of our salvation arises was largely patriarchal, it is not unreasonable to allow the prospect that some of what we find in scripture may be descriptive rather than proscriptive.

    Perhaps one of the great passages to reflect on is the discussion with the Samaritan Woman at Jacob's Well as discussed in the 4th chapter of the 4th Gospel. I commend it to you.


    Social Justice

    https://forums.anglican.net/threads/is-social-justice-a-valid-concept.4142/
     
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  20. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Don't be silly, they crucified him for much less infringement of their man made 'traditions'.
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