Moderate Ceremonialism

Discussion in 'Liturgy, and Book of Common Prayer' started by The Hackney Hub, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. The Hackney Hub

    The Hackney Hub Well-Known Member

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  2. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    That was an interesting article to read, thanks Hackney

    " in all cases, catechism is necessary to teach the laity what we are doing in worship and why we are doing it. Catechism will prevent the laity from fostering unbiblical notions of Christian worship."

    This is an important point, otherwise all the ceremonialism are just empty symbols with no substance.

    "Ancient custom calls for two candles to be on the table to symbolize the light of Christ"

    Do you know why two candles? I remember at the garrison church an anglican minister told us how one is called the apostle candle and the other, the epistle candle. i can't remember why though. Does anyone know the reason behind this?

    "In this regards, it is important to catechize the people about the true nature of Holy Communion and not to foster an unbiblical notion of sacrifice in relation to the Eucharist. However, most people do not associate the eucharistic vestments with the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Mass so it is not contradictory for Anglican miniters to wearr those vestments."

    Doe sit have any point then if not associated with sacrifice? and could it possibly lead to people assming there is little difference between catholic and anglican churches if they dress in the same robes? It could lead an impression it's the same thing going on especially to a poorly catechised anglican or an outsider who will only see the outward appearance.

    "Cranmer is of some value here because he adds two valuable qualifications for a ceremony, that it must be edifying to the people and not contrary to the teaching of Scripture. In addition, he believes in the simplicity of worship, therefore a multiplication of rites is wrong in his eyes because it it is unedifying to the people. I hope clergy and laity listen to Cranmer and promote the Gospel in their congregations and not focus on the details of ceremonial."

    good points!
     
  3. The Hackney Hub

    The Hackney Hub Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall why two candles are particularly chosen but there are referred to as the Gospel and Epistle candles respectively. This refers to the old custom of where the Gospel and Epistle were read. The Epistle side is the right side (if you are in the congregation facing the table) or where the lectern is in modern churches. The Gospel side is the left or the pulpit.

    Interesting points about the vestments. My preference is for the Anglican choir dress but if a priest choses to wear Mass vestments, I don't think it's wrong.
     
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  4. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    I find all the vestments and the tradtions and symbolism behind them interesting. I didn;t realsie the variety until here, there should probably be a thread explaining all the different ones for visitors here. Should keep me busy for a while :)
     
  5. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    In Western rites of the Eucharist since the middle ages, altars always faced east, being placed near to, or flat against, the eastern wall of the church. The Epistle was always read on the southern side of the altar. This mystically represented the Gospel being preached by the first Apostles spreading out to Palestine, Egypt, Saba, and Ethiopia as their first ports of call; i.e. south of the Holy Land. The Gospel was always read on the northern side of the altar. This mystically portrayed the preaching of Christ within Judea, facing out to the historic gentile empires which were all situated north and east of the Holy Land.

    The utilization of both ends of the altar, as well as turning to face the people at times, generally signified the worldwide character of the Gospel. All four cardinal directions were represented.

    A custom grew up of placing six candles on either side of the crucifix above the altar. The crucifix represented Christ, the seventh candlestick of the Book of Revelation. No particular candle on the altar was associated with the Epistle reading, but two movable candles rested south of the altar during the Epistle, signifying the Word of God present. At the Gospel time, these two candles were picked up by two acolytes who passed before the altar, and set down north of the altar. I've heard that this represented the shifting of God's favour from the south (Israel) to the north (the Nations).

    Much of this practice was in pious rubrics known only to liturgical experts, historians, and clergy with nothing better to do. Roman Catholics who learn these things generally get a twinkle of awe in their eyes and long for the Old Mass, when these things were still in use. Even Rome got rid of these practices in 1969.
     
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  6. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    This video is useful for understanding Romanist ceremony, with relation to the candles and facing the east:

    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRIy_4LbcCs Collect of the Day - Epistle
    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwfk6CjSKmc Alleluia and transfer of the Candles from south to north

    In Berlin, the FSSP (Fraternitas Sacerdotalis Sancti Petri, Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter) celebrate the Latin Mass of 1962 for Christmas, basically unchanged from 1570. This is the Mass condemned by John Knox and all the Anglican Divines.

    In 1. the priest says "The Lord be with you", answered by "And with thy spirit". He then clearly moves to the south, says the Collect of the Day, and then reads the Epistle. In 2. everyone is seated after a liturgical poem called the Graduale has been sung. The alleluia begins, announcing the preparation for the Gospel reading. The Lectionary is taken from the southern side of the altar and put on the northern side. At about 1:50 you can see the two acolytes move the candles from the credence table in the south and stand at the north end for the Gospel.

    After this exhausting, pointless ceremonial (which wastes time that might've been spent preaching or hearing the pure Gospel in a language all could understand without translation-booklets), we can thank God for the Reformation. :)
     
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  7. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Anglican Ceremonial has existed as long as the Roman display! In my opinion it didn't disappear at the early Reformation, indeed as I see it is was Cromwell and the Puritans, Calvinists, who put a stop to much of it! As they did with the effigies and colour in the Church. The damage done by these vandals at the back end of the reformation was incalculable.( 1643/ 60.) They wrecked the churches, burnt the vestments and bibles. Cromwell had his musketeers and troopers use their muskets and halberds to destroy the beauty within many buildings. Turing out the priests and their families from the rectories. the Puritans sent many as slaves to the Indies. (Walker.) Leaving their families to starve. The Church existed chiefly in France,under the patronage of Queen Mary the much abused French wife of the Royal Martyr!

    As for the Candles on the Altar, they were supposed to represent Christ, as the ',Light of the World.'
    The use of six candles came from the need of one of the medieval popes to have more light , it makes me laugh when we see the Anglican Papalists make long winded excuses for altering the traditional two for six. I don't object to ceremonial done right. Andrews, Cosin, Laud, Stafford used it, my objection is to copying Rome! We should have gone ahead in the 19th, Century with the ideas put forward by the people who proffered them on English ceremonial , with Vestment colours as well.

    !What many people do not take in to consideration and I think this is reflected within Hackney's Article ,was the economic disaster that overtook the Church at the Reformation in England. There's a letter published in Colliers History, to Elizabeth explaining where all the money extracted from the Church had gone, very little to Henry! he'd been injured in 1536 and left ,'challenged', as they would say today! The money had gone to the aristocracy & middle classes, that's why Charles I got support only from the High Church in defence of religion. Low Churchmen and out and out Calvinists preferred for the ancient church to be abolished, rather than chance a demand for a return of Church wealth to its rightful owners. Many history books covering the Reformation comment on its inflicting penury on the lower classes , the Calvinists were obsessed with money, however they allowed the Churches to rot rather than contribute to their upkeep.The fact is, I would hazard , the reason that vestments went out of fashion after the early protestant attacks , was that they were beyond the pockets of either priests or vestry! Further, Elizabeth contributed to the decay using Church money to again, buy off the Calvinist Gentry, she had little choice, the demand for money from the protestants was insatiable!
     
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  8. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    If we look on Project Canterbury there are, or were, at least two good sets of photographs or prints of Pre Reformation ceremony and one of the efforts made in the middle of the 19th, Century, either can/ could be down loaded!
    Even I managed it!
     
  9. highchurchman

    highchurchman Well-Known Member Anglican

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  10. CatholicAnglican

    CatholicAnglican Active Member

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    This is my favourite usage for the Liturgy, the English Use, recommended by the great Fr.Percy Dearmer. I think it has more beauty and grace than following Rome and using those ugly fiddleback chasubles.
    http://anglicanhistory.org/alcuin/pictured.html
     
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  11. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

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  12. CatholicAnglican

    CatholicAnglican Active Member

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    That is wonderful, thank you, Fr.Allan Barton is a MediƦval Art expert