Let's tell UK government no on banning conversion therapy

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by anglican74, Nov 29, 2021.

  1. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I say, we tell them no! and will be filling out the petition forms below


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    https://anglicanmainstream.org/say-no-to-the-governments-proposed-ban-on-conversion-therapy/

    Parliament says it wants to know your views – yet, chillingly, it is proposing to silence any and all opposition to enforcement of LGBT+ ideology. It would seem we are moving dangerously close to totalitarianism, where the individual is allowed to express only views that conform with the approved ideology of the State.

    The Government is currently consulting as to whether or not to ban so-called conversion therapy. The measure, if passed along proposed lines, could criminalise the expression of Christian belief that upholds Biblical morality, and prohibit pastoral support and/or the offer of prayer for those struggling with same-sex attractions.

    The Bible enjoins us to “Show proper respect to everyone” (1Peter 2:17). The proposed ban would deny the right of change to those unhappy with their sexual orientation.

    Make your voice heard. If you haven’t yet done so, please respond to the Consultation today.

    Government Consultation here:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/banning-conversion-therapy/banning-conversion-therapy

    Questions here:
    https://equalityhub.citizenspace.com/government-equalities-office/banning-conversion-therapy/

    For your help and assistance, VfJUK’s analysis of the issues here: https://vfjuk.org.uk/wp-content/upl...erapy-Background-Briefing-Paper-25-Nov-21.pdf

    Help with responses here: https://vfjuk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/FINAL-Conversion-Therapy-Q-A-as-of-25th-Nov-1.pdf

    Deadline: Friday, 10th December 2021

    *****************

    If you haven’t yet done so, please sign our new petition to
    the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Boris Johnson MP

    Ban Stonewall from interference in public bodies and schools

    Sign here: https://citizengo.org/en-gb/signit/205303/view
     
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  2. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    It’s not my intention to get into a pointless culture war discussion, but your profile says you are in the US and that you belong to the ACNA, not the C of E (the latter of which supports such a ban). I’m therefore quite puzzled why a petition to the British Parliament (regarding the banning of a long discredited and potentially harmful practice) would be of existential concern to you. Just curious…
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
  3. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I am an American but it hurts me more than I can say to see our mother church decay, and our mother nation (as it were) turn into a shadow of its former self.... The news coming out of britain over the last couple of years have been heartbreaking, with the grooming, rapes, perversions, being not just tolerated but celebrated and becoming even legally mandated! It is a very powerless feeling

    Then this article came across my feed and I thought, well we must do something... Similarly it would be my hope that when we suffer, they will rise to the challenge and help us in the same way against our ills.. for we are indeed one culture and civilization, not to mention one church
     
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  4. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    The petition you linked to concerns the discredited practice of ‘conversion therapy’, not the other things you mentioned. Do you think it’s possible you’re expending all this anguish and heartache on the wrong thing? Is it not the central message of the season of Advent that only God can fix the world? I don’t see how signing a petition intended for citizens of an entirely different country accomplishes anything positive.
     
  5. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    It's worth noting that not everyone regards conversion therapy as having been successfully "discredited;" the ones who think and claim they have discredited it are drawing an assumption born from their bias, and we should regard their claims with healthy skepticism. There are individual testimonies of people who've found conversion therapy helpful and worthwhile.
     
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  6. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone, just everyone that matters: medical and psychiatric experts, who’ve had the proper training and have taken an oath to uphold the purpose and integrity of their profession. I’m just not terribly interested in what the non-expert public thinks about it. But for what it’s worth, polling suggests that the majority of the non-expert public in both the US and UK agrees with the experts. Democracy actually works; who would’ve thought?
     
  7. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member

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    Seeing the explosion of homosexuality in our culture amongst our youth (something like 39% of girls between 18-25 now identity as LGBTQP) shows that LGBTQP was always a social/cultural issue rather than a biological one. The truth is that if you have a culture that promotes sexual degeneracy (of any form) you will get more people partaking in that type of degeneracy. Some would argue that our children are going through a sort of LGBTQP conversion therapy through pornography, television, and public education.
     
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  8. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Ok, but again, the post in question isn’t about any of those other things. It’s just about conversion therapy. I really don’t want to get into a culture war debate about this. I just don’t understand why it was posted in the first place. It doesn’t make any sense to me. I also don’t understand why so many Anglicans on here seem to suddenly forget that they believe in original sin once they start talking about sex (or woke ideology in general), but that’s probably another topic for another thread.
     
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  9. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Atheists say its discredited... Christians say it works, and indeed I have seen many folks abandon the lgbt lifestyle... just google the "ex-gay" movement

    If it is a psychological illness which it almost always is, then it is possible to heal it

    Oh the other hand I don't think that everything under the rubric of "conversion therapy" is always ideal, but some of those things are, and anyway let's leave free people to do what is within their rights

    What legal basis is there for outlawing a practice where there exists no compulsion?
     
  10. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Oh, plenty of things are against the law that don’t involve compulsion…

    The proper end of the law is for every being to receive that which it is due, not for every being to act as it pleases. Compulsion is an evil if what it is compelling is unjust; if the compulsion in question prevents injustice then it is legitimate, provided that the total amount of compulsion is minimized. That’s not Lenin and Stalin; that’s right out of Hayek and Friedman.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
  11. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Well, look. Going to the bar gets people drunk, but we don't outlaw going to the bar, because some people actually drink responsibly and benefit from the social aspects of hanging out with the crowd (or even with just a buddy or two). Same thing with conversion therapy; if someone voluntarily wants to attend some sessions, why prohibit that?
     
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  12. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Now we’re back to where I started. My initial answer is: who cares? It’s for the UK. It’s their problem. Let them sort it out. Besides, the proposal explicitly includes the following statement:
    So there you have it. What’s the problem? No one’s talking about criminalizing free exercise here. Why was this topic posted as though it represented some grave threat to Christians everywhere? It clearly does not.
     
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  13. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I think conversion therapy does not work and is harmful. I will be glad to see it banned. What we need to fight for is the right for religious persons to say homosexual behaviour is wrong. Being a homosexual is not. We also need to ensure that homosexuals can feel free to talk to healthcare professionals and clergy about their behaviour and feelings without those people getting in trouble. A lot of conversion therapy causes a significant degree of harm. It needs banning but the law does not need rushing through, which is what seems to be happening. It is a law that needs to be carefully thought out.
     
  14. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of conversion therapy is to help people modify their behavior. Since you agree that homosexual behavior is wrong, a therapy that helps people cease their wrong behaviors should be supported (or at least not opposed), shouldn't it?

    Since there are people who say the therapy helped them, is it appropriate to continue thinking that it "does not work and is harmful"?
     
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  15. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Sadly of course there are many stories of people who have suffered appalling damage through the practice, both psychological and physical, and who knows what it has done to them spiritually. The fact that it works sometimes is really not sufficient cause to suspend the hypocritic oath (do no harm).

    I think the real problem is we so easily define persons by their gender preferences and that is clearly a shortfall. Many have failed to see past their orientation to the humanity of the person. It should in so many ways be a side issue for us. If you made the whole world straight that would not mean more people in the Kingdom.
     
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  16. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Well, let me back up a bit and say that proper conversion therapy is not much more than counseling. When I hear of banning conversion therapy, I hear "ban this form of counseling." I just did some internet 'research' (5 minutes' worth) and I'm appalled that pro-LGBTQ websites claim chemical castration, electroshock treatments, and other physical means to be a part of "conversion therapy;" I am now wondering whether they are telling the truth or whether they are engaging in hyperbolic claims to discourage this form of counseling?
     
  17. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Now that you've come across this information, I respectfully suggest you re-read my post #12 above, especially the quoted portion from the OP's original link. It should cast the pending UK legislation in a different light.
     
  18. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Yes, yes, I know, I know. The thread may have started over what is essentially a non-issue. Nonetheless, I'm starting to see that the question of whether conversion therapy is "bad" is polarized due to misinformation. Those who say they oppose conversion therapy altogether (apparently in all forms) have, I think, been on the receiving end of pro-LGBTQ propaganda designed to demonize any & all efforts that could make their sin look avoidable, non-genetic, non-hereditary. That community has a vested interest in the promoting the idea that homosexual desires cannot ever be overcome or undone. Therefore, they loudly disseminate claims of blatant physical damage and severe emotional harms. But where are the studies to prove these claims? Where are the statistics to show the vast numbers of these victims of electroshock and chemical castration? Where is the proof of all the people who allegedly have been carted off and held against their will and involuntarily subjected to 'mind games'? Anecdotes don't cut it when the people spinning the anecdotes have a 'dog in the fight.' I think good Christians have a duty to push back against a false narrative and defend good, proper, voluntary conversion therapy consisting primarily of counseling, because several US states have already banned it outright; they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

    For every anecdote of harm, there's an anecdote of good done by conversion therapy. The truth lies in the middle, not in either extreme. Thus, to those who simply reject or say vilifying things about conversion therapy, I object!
     
  19. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    What they appear to be looking to do in the UK is impose disclosure requirements rather than an outright ban.
     
  20. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I stayed out of this thread initially as it is a matter for the English, that is not were I live, and so not my place. The practice is outlawed in Australia, and several inquires that led to successive states banning the practice determined much harm and little good had come from the practice. Human sexuality is clearly a very complex matter, and indeed we all have a stake in the matter, so any objectivity will be subjective. There were a range of practices that were especially heinous over and beyond psychological reconfiguration and mind control.

    What constitutes voluntary? and especially what constitutes voluntary in the life of a child?
     
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