Is there an idea of purgatory in Anglican Theology ?

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Andy Cothran, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Joshua

    Joshua New Member

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    I think we need to take into consideration what the articles were referring to at the time they were written. No one who bears the name Anglican should accept the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. No one should be teaching purgatory in the Churches, but to say that we cannot have a pious opinion about something is going farther than I am willing too. Jesus took our sins upon Himself. His victory is my victory by faith. There is no need to undergo purgatory. However, we still desire to sin. We are right in the eyes of God because of Jesus but we still want to do what is wrong. Do you think its against the formularies to believe we will be changed in the sense that we will not desire sin when we enter heaven? Just my opinion! I think this is all that Lewis was saying.
     
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  2. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    We will certainly not be able to desire sin in Heaven, since it will be a restoration to our original state of nature. This shall not occur in the spiritual Heaven which currently exists however, but at the Last Judgment:

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 "Behold, I shew you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this incorruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

    I think that's key to the understanding or misunderstanding of Purgatory theories. Paul says that we shall not (remain in) sleep, but will be changed - at the last trumpet. No change is said to occur between death and the resurrection. Our corruption and entropy will be reversed at that moment.

    Did you make a bit of a common blunder in your association of "Romish" doctrine of Purgatory with just any old doctrine of change-after-death? There is only one doctrine of Purgatory, the "Romish" one. As for opinion, the Pharisees had many pious opinions, but they were called a brood of vipers - then again, they taught the error openly. I mean no insult to you; just an example.
     
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  3. Joshua

    Joshua New Member

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    Could not purgatory be redefined as a change after death for those of us who are against works justification? Just because someone does something bad in your car, does not mean you have to sell your car.
     
  4. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    In the bible death is called "sleep", and the outward change of the flesh seems to occur only after the physical Resurrection on the Last Day. Is there a Bible passage speaking about the inward change of the soul after its personal judgment, before the Last Day? The famous passage about hay & stubble being burned by fire seems related to many different things, not necessarily Purgatory.

    To be purely loyal to the OP's original question: the Anglican position on Purgatory must be the Biblical one, and no other.
     
  5. Joshua

    Joshua New Member

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    As you have said there really is no Biblical position on purgatory. The bible says nothing of it, which is why I reverted to pious opinion. As far as our entering the spiritual heaven after death, all I was suggesting is that a change could occur that could possibly be viewed as a form of purgatory. The Bible does not say much about it, so I do not know why we would command or forbid it. As far as a pious opinion that is.
     
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  6. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Would you say your opinion here comes from being broadly Anglican, or from being Anglo-Catholic?

    As a Sola Scriptura-affirming conservative Anglican, I would say: "if Purgatory isn't in Scripture, it not only isn't necessary, but it shouldn't be believed at all". With that, however, I get into matters of individual conscience where I would need to storm in with police and armies to change something that cannot be changed.

    The Bible doesn't mention it, and since the Bible is my rule and last court of appeal for any matter of doctrine, there it stands. I guess I'll have to decide whether I can let others believe something that I cannot. :)
     
  7. Joshua

    Joshua New Member

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    I have never really been in an Anglican Church that was not Anglo Catholic. I believe the Bible was understood through the lens of the earliest Church Fathers. Both Prima Scriptura and Sola Scriptura can be held by Anglicans as both are inline with the formularies. Prima Scriptura holds Tradition to be tested by scripture and Sola Scriptura though holding to the Bible as the only infallible authority would not claim that it is the only authority.
    Nothing is necessary to be believed that cannot be proven by scripture. I would not say that things that the Bible is silent on cannot be believed but that they should not be required as necessary to salvation.
     
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  8. Adam Warlock

    Adam Warlock Well-Known Member

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    That's not up to the individual. It's up to the bishops, who absolutely allow others to believe some things that you do not.
     
  9. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Well, a bishop cannot allow people to believe that Christ has only one nature, for example - or that God is two persons. Is liberty of conscience only allowed for subjects outside the scope of the Creeds?

    This sounds like doctrinal chaos to me...
     
  10. Adam Warlock

    Adam Warlock Well-Known Member

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    Your question: who decides who is Anglican?
    My answer: Anglican leadership.
    Not sure how that's a problem. You and Hackney seem to think that you are the only people on the planet who can declare someone Anglican. Well guess what: that's not how we roll.
     
  11. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I'm trying to get a serious discussion on, and here you are using Final Fantasy screenshots. Please tell me you think we could do better than that. I'd never "face-palm" your posts, thanks very much.

    The Anglican Leadership certainly does not decide what is Anglican. Maybe in latter days it has tried to do so, but the Articles clearly state that whatever is of holy divine Scripture is Anglican doctrine.
     
  12. Adam Warlock

    Adam Warlock Well-Known Member

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    Ok first, that's my signature. It's ok to laugh sometimes. :D
    Second, if you don't think that the Leadership decides what is Anglican, you may be in for a bit of a surprise when you convert. And I mean that very seriously.
     
  13. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It's ok to laugh if you're not the one who feels like a failure...

    If Lambeth really does "decide what's Anglican", rather than adhere to some sort of strict historical standard, then I'll be very shocked indeed. Thanks for the warning... I guess there's not much else to do...
     
  14. CuriousBeliever

    CuriousBeliever New Member Anglican

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    Not to bring back old discussions but some of the links used in this thread have been shut down in recent years, does anybody have more recent ones that can access the articles linked in previous posts?
     
  15. Jenkins

    Jenkins New Member Anglican

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    Hi CuriousBeliever. Here are links to the report and the article mentioned earlier in this discussion.
     
  16. CuriousBeliever

    CuriousBeliever New Member Anglican

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    Thanks @Jenkins, I didn’t there was such an extensive archive library for this stuff.
     
  17. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

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  18. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I enjoyed the article, DJG. Both The Great Divorce and The Last Battle are favorites of mine. I think the author's fears are unfounded and his definition of Universalism inaccurate. The Holy Spirit used CS Lewis' Mere Christianity to bring me back to faith in God and used The Great Divorce to help me reconcile some of the nagging misgivings that remained after I became an Anglican.
     
  19. Fr. Michael Schaplowsky

    Fr. Michael Schaplowsky New Member

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    As an Orthodox priest, I have often been asked about purgatory as well. I like some of the older understandings of purgatory in the West (but I have yet to find references). My view of purgatory from an Orthodox perspective is that it does not exist as a place but rather a state. When I stand before the awesome judgment seat of Christ and I see my life laid out before me (both the good and the bad) and despite my failings, Christ says to me 'Remember I love you and I forgive you' -- my remorse will burn like fire. To be truly loved despite who I am even now can bring tears. I hope this helps.

    In regards to praying for those who have gone before us. I believe that if we truly and I mean truly believe that Christ has conquered death, then there is no separation between the living and the dead - we are one Church in Christ. In addition, we do not as Orthodox see things as static and I would suggest neither does the Western Christian Tradition (as you say Gordon). We do not meet a minimum and get to go to heaven. Rather we start a journey (hopefully here on earth) and even in heaven we are further sanctified as we continue to become more like God (image and likeness) for all eternity. I think it would be quite boring if all growth ceases.
     

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