Is Genesis all literal, all allegory, or somewhere between?

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by ZachT, Jun 27, 2021.

  1. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Yes , of course, "it is a waste of time", but it with your myths, not with the Word of GOD, for the Word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    By the way, the Word is very powerful, and will be much more in this seventh and last millennium, understand? Yes, the Old and New Testaments, in this seventh and last millennium, both will be much more powerful than they were before, understand? Read what GOD says of the Old and New Testaments in Revelation 11:3-4, and the consequences of their Power now against peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues, even from now on. Be careful or then get ready.
    Oh! you are not being righteous in your words, I work with the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD and is quite relevant, understand? What is irrelevant are the cunningly devised fables and myths you always have mixed and still mix with the Word of GOD to confound the readers, that's a waste of time, of course. What will be the reward?
     
  2. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Yet another incoherent post. Is this how you talk in normal conversation? :facepalm: I didn’t create these “myths,” @Oseas; they were there thousands of years before either of us were born, and centuries before the languages the Bible was written in even existed.

    I’m still waiting for your answer regarding why an alleged non-native English speaker would exclusively use the KJV… :hmm:
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  3. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    What prevails is the content of KJV, much more than the own version specifically. I make consult of several biblical versions, include Jewish Bible: Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Ketuvim.
     
  4. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    That’s not an answer. You never quote the standard Jewish translations. (I consult them regularly, BTW, and often prefer them.)

    It seems that what actually prevails here is an imposter engaging this Forum under false pretenses. I do not believe for one second that you’re a Brazilian octogenarian who exclusively uses the KJV, spends all his time on the internet, and thinks the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon.” You sound a lot more like an uneducated backwoods American fundamentalist to me…
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  5. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD. GOD is a title, the WORD is GOD.
    GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days (last two days or last 2000 years ) spoken unto us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His Glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of His PERSON, and upholding all things by the word of His Power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Understand?

    What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, don't you agree? GOD is title, - the Word is GOD. Your thinking is from a human perspective, not from God's perspective. Speculations, imaginations, presumptions, conjectures, and your own opinion they mean nothing and they are good for nothing.
     
  6. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere is scripture does it say that GOD is a title. I don't know what that means or why you would say that.

    Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds. He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
    Hebrews 1:1-4

    Whilst you are prepared to use the text of the KJV, it seems even that is not sufficient so you have inserted and bolded something not part of the text. This may be exegesis, or it may be eisegesis, and that will be a matter of consideration. Certainly, on the basis of the time it was written, one would take this as a reference to Jesus' earthly ministry, and no a reference to the period that was to follow the writing.

    There is no one here saying that Jesus does not matter, not that he does not prevail, or that death has not been swallowed up in victory. What alarms me is your ongoing insistence that you, by some unimagined superpower can discern things from a divine perspective, whilst the rest of us mere mortals are constrained to only see things from a human perspective. It seems that you are claiming an epistemic primitive (that is you are basing your argument on something before knowledge and reason and indeed something that can neither be questioned nor evaluated by anyone else). This is a difficult position to take in a discussion, as it means you invest nothing, you risk nothing, and you are not in a discussion, but rather standing on a soap box dealing with hecklers. It is also a position that is fraught personally with considerable risk, as you then cease to be someone who seeks truth and pursues it, and become someone who believes that the truth is something to be owned and defended at any cost, even truth itself.

    Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind: ‘Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you, and you shall declare to me.

    ‘Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?
    Job 38:1-7
     
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  7. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Hello from Brazil | Pure Bible Forum (and see www.sinaiticus.net )
     
  8. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    This topic had been stopped there was a year in the post #310 posted by CRfromQld, Nov 9, 2021, and with 9563 views,
    and because I like deciphering the hidden riddles in Genesis I revived the topic through my post #311, on December 20, 2022,
    that is, after a year, and now the topic has 11341 views , so almost two thousand more views in these last 20 days. I think it's wonderful.
    It's the power of the Word of GOD, GOD is a title, the Word is GOD, great mystery. Let there be light, and there was light.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2023
  9. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Brother
    GOD is a title really, not a NAME, in fact the Word is GOD. By the way, "neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved". What's NAME? The angel Gabriel was sent unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, said unto Mary: Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with GOD-the Word is GOD. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb(according the Word-the Word is GOD), and bring forth a Son, and shalt call his NAME Jesus. This is the NAME of the Almighty GOD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, really the Almighty-Matthew 28:18-, without Him was not any thing made that was made-John 1:3.

    By the way, of the angels GOD saith, Who maketh His angels spirits /winds-, and His ministers a flame of fire.
    But unto the Son, GOD saith: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy Kingdom.
    In fact, I highlighted in bold that "last days" refers the period of time from JESUS until this current time, I mean two days/two millennia. In fact we are living in beginning of the first century of the third millennium from JESUS's time, and in the seventh and last millennium from Adam, i.e. in the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day.
    2 Peter 3:7-8 - Equally this Scriptures of Peter was written almost 2000 years ago, and refers to the current time.
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    7 The heavens (the 1st and 2nd heavens. The next to be established is the 3rd) and the earth, which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men; --> (Who will render to every man according to his deeds, as is written in Romans 2: 7-11 among other biblical references:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11 For there is no respect of persons with God).
     
  10. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    I have difficulties with this statement.
    A title can be applied to many things that bear a certain characteristic. E.g. the title "president" can be applies to many different people from the president of the local bridge club to the leader of the USA.
    If GOD is a title then it can be applied to different beings, persons, or things; like when Aaron made the golden calf and said "These are your gods".

    A god is a divine being of supernatural powers or attributes. In polytheistic religions there can be many gods. In Christianity and in the English language since there is one god we refer to him as God, not as a title but as the name of the particular diving being.

    I think the distinction title and name can be seen in the OT. Elohim is a title that can be applied to God as well as people whereas YHWH is the personal name of God that is used exclusively for God.

    [The term "Elohim" means “supreme one” or “mighty one.” It is not only used of the one true God but is also used on occasion to refer to human rulers, judges, and even angels.]
     
  11. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    God is not a name, in the sense of one entity among a number of similar genres and communities, whereby God might be identified in isolation from the others. Indeed, God is before all existence, and whilst that is a difficult position for many contemporary existentialists, there we go. The opening of Genesis is essentially suggesting that before anything came to be, God already had a past tense. It seems to be to suggest that God is a Title is to trvialise the divine. I hope that you are not saying that God is merely a Title.

    The difficulty you have is that you want the text to say something, so you introduce irregular artifacts to the text, in order that you might read into the text some specific meaning. Technically this is referred to as eisegesis, a practice that has many notable problems, including opening the door to heresy and closing the door to truth. I would ask you to stop doing this, and ask that you be more open to the text than you are to what you want the text to say.

    2 Peter 3:7-8
    But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.​

    I am having a little trouble following what you are doing with the text here, however, I don't think you are being fair to it. Let the text speak.

    Romans 2:7-11
    to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.​

    This a good passage to end your article, and a note gladly that you have allowed the text to speak on its own. I recall a friend who observed in a lecture on Romans that the main theme of Romans was "just because the Jews are circumcised doesn't;t mean that they are a cut above the rest!" It has a sense of truth to it, and a sense of comedy, however, it is not the full story of Romans. I tend to see Romans as a great account of Paul's internal dialogue, where everything he was by nature and upbringing engages with everything he has strived for as the "Apostle to the Gentiles".
     
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  12. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    Friend, what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, do you agree? I'm not speaking of the letter, the letter kills, but of the Spirit-GOD Himself- The Word is GOD-John 1:1 - if you agree with the Word of GOD, forget human thoughts, and search to stand WITHIN the Word of GOD.

    What does the Word of GOD say about gods, who are the gods? What did JESUS say to the Jews, the FIRST people of the whole Earth to which the Word of GOD was given and revealed? Here goes what JESUS said, let us learn from Him:

    John 10:34-38
    34 Jesus answered tho the Jews: Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? ---> (Why the Jews were gods, and the Gentiles not? JESUS revealed why the Jews were gods, as follow)

    35 If he -GOD,the Word- called them gods, unto whom the word of GOD came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    36 Say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of GOD?

    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may KNOW, and BELIEVE, that the Father -the Word- is in me, and I in Him. (JESUS had said to the Jews : I and my Father(the Word) are One-John 10:30. --> What was the reaction of the Jews to the Word of JESUS?

    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone JESUS.

    32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father(the Word); for which of those works do ye stone me?

    33 The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a MAN, makest thyself God.)

    NOTE: In fact JESUS was not making Himself God, oh no, in fact JESUS was God, and is God, do you believe in the Word? However, as is written in Philippians 2:6 to 11:
    6 JESUS, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Meditate on the Word of God, and keep the Word in your heart - the Word is God, and is a fire, a consuming fire, so if you do this ... many things are chamnged in your life.
    Everyone which do this are gods. Have you ever read? GOD is GOD of the gods-Psalm 82 reveals: GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty(do you understand?); He Judgeth among the gods. It means , He judges among them which the Word of GOD came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2023
  13. Oseas

    Oseas Member

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    You must see JESUS as the Father -i.e. the Word. The Word is GOD, and was made flesh -JESUS-, because the Word is self-executing, understand? The Word is GOD. JESUS said: I and my Father are One.
    2 Thessalonians 2:16-17- King James Version
    16 Now our LORD Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
    17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good Word and work.

    2 Thessalonians 2 - Common English Bible
    16 Our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father loved us and through grace gave us eternal comfort and a good hope.
    17 May he encourage your hearts and give you strength in every good thing you do or say.

    Therefore, JESUS, the Word made flesh- i.e. GOD Himself incarnate- because the Word is God , this means JESUS and His Father-the Word- both are One. You must see JESUS as the Father -i.e. the Word- the Word is GOD, and was made flesh -JESUS-. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One.
    In fact, it seems that the difficulty you have is that the Word of GOD doesn't fit with your human thoughts.
    The things revealed by the Word, I mean by the Holy Spirit of GOD, they are spiritually discerned, and the Word you technically know and see, and read, is only of the letter, not of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, the letter kills as is showed by the Word of GOD in Genesis 3. I'm sure you understand the difference between one and another conception.
    My focus is to announce the LITERAL fulfillment of the prophecy above exactly in this current millennium, the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day. Get ready.
    What I would highlight is that what is most important, I mean it is what you understood of the above biblical text is what matters, and if it was/is also according to the Spirit of GOD and not according to the spirit of men, only then would we be speaking an only language evidently. JESUS said in His prayer to the Father: Sanctify them through thy Truth: thy Word is Truth. --> The Word is GOD, and He is who testifies.
     
  14. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.
     
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  15. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    In other words, it is clear from this that: "In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us." 2 Cor. 5:19.
     
  16. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    My view is that the chacedonian definition, together with the creed of the 1st Counil of Constantinople are litmus tests of orthodox belief.
     
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  17. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Thread cleaned up. Please remember to avoid proselytizing, and to not disparage Anglican orthodoxy. Thank you.