In 16th century, Bishop Scipione Rebiba: ancestor of 95% of Catholic bishops?!

Discussion in 'Church History' started by Toma, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Friends,

    Interesting experiment for every one to try...

    There is a bottleneck in the Apostolic Orders of the Church of Rome: Scipione Rebiba (1504-1577), a bishop and cardinal. No one knows when he was consecrated - or by whom - and yet he is the ultimate source for 95% of Roman episcopal lineages.

    Go to www.catholic-hierarchy.org and search for the Roman Catholic bishop of your city or any in your country, worldwide. Each bishop is listed with the year of his consecration beside his name - scroll to the bottom of any one bishop's page to see how far back his line can be traced. I can pretty much guarantee that any bishop you find descends in a line from Rebiba.

    What fascinating implications for the Roman Church if Rebiba was not properly consecrated.
     
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  2. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Active Member

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    Can we all yell "gotcha" at the nearest Catholic once we prove our superiority?
     
  3. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It's not about superiority, but about truth & reality.

    Also, yes.
     
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  4. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    1. The fact that no-one knows who consecrated Card. Rebiba is of little consequence to them. Even if it can't be proved, there's always presumption in favour of Rome when reading back into history. The system doesn't break because of things like these.

    2. I don't think any of the more knowledgeable Roman theologians actually believes in the strict paradigm of mechanical apostolic succession anymore. It's an apologetic tool more than than anything else.
     
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  5. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I am sure they can easily say that the documents relating to Rebiba's consecration were just lost in Napoleon's ransack of the Vatican Archives. Any excuse will do in order to perpetrate the nonsense.
     
  6. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    Is there any reason Rebiba wouldn't have been properly consecrated? If there was a strong belief in the Roman church at the time that only bishops can ordain others then I suppose likely he was ordained by a bishop. Certainly is interesting. Also was the practice normative in those days for three bishops to ordain a new bishop?
     
  7. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    There are certain periods in history that invite unscrupulous men. When Constantine legalized Christianity, he began to give bishops the right to judge in secular court cases, and he allowed them to ride in imperial chariots with palace guards. Many were drawn to deceit in order to get the benefits of episcopacy. It's human nature.

    Another period conducive to such things might be, for example, the Anarchy in England under Maude & Stephen. With whole dioceses being moved, abandoned, or even killed in war, a Norman might come from across the Channel claiming to be Bishop So-and-So, having actually killed Bishop So-and-So! Not that this was ever documented - but it's entirely possible.

    I'm just uncomfortable that Rebiba has no records relating to his consecration at all. He's the origin of 90-95% of Roman Catholic bishops. Why would the Church not announce his principle consecrators, even to their own hierarchy - considering the fact that he's their direct episcopal ancestor? It's awfully tenuous for such an important person.

    That practice was already well-established in Canons of the Ecumenical Councils by the A.D. 400s. :)
     
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  8. Scottish Knight

    Scottish Knight Well-Known Member

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    Have to say that sounds a brilliant plot for a novel :D

    Yeah it's a bit strange that his records are non existant and I gather with no known explantion for their absence, does make you wonder :think:

    Of course the On a side note, who knows what is in the Vatican archives. I always found it slightly intriguing that most records are kept secret there
     
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  9. The Hackney Hub

    The Hackney Hub Well-Known Member

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  10. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    True apostolic succession is a succession of true faith, a succesion of the doctrines of the apostles preached and taught in churches, it's not a mere mechanical succession of bishop to bishop that cannot be proved anyway. Any given bishop proves to be a successor of the apostles by what he teaches and how he behaves.
     
  11. Incense

    Incense Active Member

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    That is so very true!
     
  12. Simon Magus

    Simon Magus Member

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    Well said. The only Romans who seem to bother with a purely mechanical view (which, on paper, at least, is the Catholic Church's stated sacramental theology) are certain sedevacantists who have concluded to their own satisfaction that the 1969 rite of episcopal orders is invalid. Either that, they say, or the Anglicans must be legitimate!
     
  13. Old Christendom

    Old Christendom Well-Known Member

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    Well, one would have to blame either Leo XIII or Paul VI for that faux pas. One of them obviously got it wrong.
     
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