I have just learned that Steven Wedgeworth converted to Anglicanism

Discussion in 'Navigating Through Church Life' started by anglican74, Dec 18, 2021.

  1. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    One can detect the stages by comparing earlier and later confessional documents on topics such as the Apocrypha or predestination. I have done this myself, simply by reading the various Confessions in chronological order. There is a definite progression that is palpable. The Church of England simply didn't participate in this in any substantial way after Elizabeth. There were plenty of individual prelates who were Calvinist in their soteriology (J.C. Ryle, anyone?), but this wasn't the Church's official position.
     
  2. Matthew J Taylor

    Matthew J Taylor Member

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    Would really love an elaboration on this, it's piqued my interest.
     
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  3. Matthew J Taylor

    Matthew J Taylor Member

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    Exactly, the restriction is based on the principle of establishment wherein having presbyters ordaining in networks outwith the Church of England would be a challenge to the national supremacy and the authority of the state.
    Whilst the Church of England only gives full recognition of orders to non-Anglican Communion bodies to a handful of bodies (Roman Catholic Church, Free Church of England and the Reformed Evangelical Anglican Church of South Africa) it would be ludicrous to propose that these are the boundaries of CofE recognition of the validity of orders, not least because of how close the Church of England has come to union with the British Methodists at various points in the 20th Century.
     
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  4. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    When the Supreme Governor of the Church of England takes communion in Scotland, she does so in a Presbyterian Church. That tells us all we need to know.

    The Church of England officially endorsed the Lutheran and Reformed understanding of the Church’s ministry, while retaining episcopal governance exclusively within its own jurisdiction, as some Lutheran and Continental Reformed Churches had done.
     
  5. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Just offhand:

    Screen Shot 2022-02-02 at 9.42.10 PM.png
    https://books.google.com/books?id=y...=2ahUKEwilycj-vuL1AhXyk4kEHbRjAboQ6AF6BAgIEAI


    Not at all, and prior to the 1662 Ordinal, a few non-episcopal presbyters indeed were accepted by some CofE bishops (to the consternation of others). This was not any kind of challenge to authority, because however one had initially gotten ordained, he would still required to gain the reception and the license from the Church in order to practice ministry. So the final buck of authority always remains local.

    But after the 1662 Ordinal, it became definitively prohibited from treating non-episcopal presbyters as validly ordained. It's not that they were ordained but just illicit. They were seen as not possessing holy orders.


    What does this have to do with anything? The Queen is not the source of the Church's divine right and institution; she merely gives it the legal faculties to operate in her kingdom (sit in her Parliament, even enforce punishment on her citizens). Because the Church of England has these civic powers, she also submits to a civic ruler. In a different kingdom the Queen can behave quite differently, without it reflecting on the Church of England. The Queen does not confect on to the Church of England anything like divine marks of ministry. She is merely a secular governor; in places around the world where such a governor is lacking, the Church remains unaltered in her rights, authority, and capacity, continuing to function exactly the same.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2022
  6. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    It has to do with the fact that it’s a bit odd to think that the Monarch as a matter of constitutional convention would publicly and intentionally set an example for her subjects that flatly refutes the supposed claims of the institutions of which she is the head. The 1662 Ordinal says nothing about the status of Protestant clergy in Scotland or on the Continent. It is no part of Anglican teaching that non-episcopal Orders are invalid of themselves. It was only enforced, at one time, that such Orders were unlawful in England. You seem to be skipping from the 17th century to the 21st as though there were nothing in between. Read Newman’s Apologia, or the episcopal responses to the Tractarians. Anglicanism has always held with the rest of magisterial Protestantism that the Ministry is derived from and through the Church, not the other way around. If a group of Anglicans got shipwrecked in the South Pacific with no clergy and no hope of rescue, there is nothing in any of the Anglican formularies to suggest that such a group could not only appoint new clergy, but also that whatever sacraments they celebrated would be perfectly “valid” if irregular. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please feel free to produce it. I think the Church of England and her daughter Churches were right to preserve as much of the medieval tradition as they could, including episcopacy. But that fact would not stop me from worshiping with Lutherans, Presbyterians, or Methodists, nor has it stopped Anglican Churches in other parts of the world from entering into formal unions with other Protestant bodies. The very possibility of that happening (in the case of the proposed Anglican-Lutheran merger in Jerusalem) was a major factor in Newman’s ultimate conversion to Roman Catholicism in the first place.
     
  7. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget the Queen is also the Queen of Scotland.

    The Queen and the Church of Scotland
    Monarchs have sworn to maintain the Church of Scotland since the sixteenth century. The duty to "preserve the settlement of the true Protestant religion as established by the laws made in Scotland" was affirmed in the 1707 Act of Union between England and Scotland.

    The Queen made this pledge at the first Privy Council meeting of her reign in February 1952.

    The Queen's relationship with the Church of Scotland was symbolised by a Service of Dedication in St. Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh on 24 June 1953, three weeks after the Coronation. During this ceremony Her Majesty was blessed by the Dean of the Chapel Royal in Scotland and the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.

    The Church of Scotland is a Presbyterian church and recognises only Jesus Christ as 'King and Head of the Church'. The Queen therefore does not hold the title 'Supreme Governor' of the Church of Scotland; when attending Church services in Scotland Her Majesty does so as an ordinary member.

    The Church of Scotland is entirely self-governing. It is managed on a local level by kirk sessions, at a district level by presbyteries, and at a national level by the General Assembly, which comprises 850 commissioners and meets each May, generally in Edinburgh. Find out more about the government of the Church of Scotland on their website.

    The Sovereign is represented at the General Assembly by the Lord High Commissioner, who attends as an observer and is appointed by Her Majesty on the advice of the Prime Minister. The Lord High Commissioner makes opening and closing addresses to the General Assembly and reports to Her Majesty on its proceedings. Members of the Royal Family have acted as Lord High Commissioners. The Queen, with The Duke of Edinburgh has attended and addressed the General Assembly on a number of occasions, most recently in 2002.
     
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  8. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Queen is not “the source of the Church”, whereby the source of the Church of England and the source of the Church of Scotland is the same; and the two are thereby in some ways the same. That’s literally never been our understanding.

    No, the Church of Scotland is a schismatic and apostate lay institution without valid ministry or sacraments. They willfully resisted liturgical and apostolic ministry which we’ve sacrificed much to bring to them over the centuries. Our churchmen have for centuries recognized that the CoS lacks the marks of a legitimate church, and sought to gift them liturgy and valid holy orders. At this point we simply need to evangelize and bring the gospel to the people of Scotland. The Queen can be a secular supervisor for their lay organization, just as she for our Church. But we have nothing in common and nothing to do with them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2022
  9. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Do Anglicans also need to "evangelize and bring the gospel to the people" called the Baptists, the Methodists, the Wesleyans, the Assemblies of God, the Nazarenes, the non-denoms, and so on? I thought there was one Body, one Church, comprised of all those who trust in Christ alone for grace and redemption regardless of the sign over their meeting place's doorway?
     
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  10. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Not before other peoples like the Muslims and the atheists, sure.
    But in situations where there are no muslims or atheists around, then most definitely. All those people have a partial/impaired connection to Christ, and lack the completeness of the graces which he has given. They are suffering and struggling to go through Christian life on their own strength, without much supernatural help, which means they're most likely to fail. It is a feat of mercy for us to share the fullness of the gospel with them, rather than being cruel and letting them flounder on their own in deep waters.
     
  11. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    It's odd when Anglicans have a higher view of Papists and Eastern Orthodox folks than Presbyterians and Methodists. I don't consider my Presbyterian or Methodists brothers and sisters "apostates (hell bound)." That would damn the vast majority of the people who have ever lived in my State.
     
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  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Wow. :facepalm:

    So, because they don't share our episcopacy and our liturgy, their union with Christ is "impaired"? I find that view arrogant, erroneous and repulsive. Those other churches I've mentioned glorify and lift up Christ, they are Trinitarian, and they teach the correct gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ only. Their church governance is different and they don't call their liturgy a "liturgy," but they are "about their Fathers' business" just as much as the Anglicans are.

    Let us not lift form above substance.
     
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  13. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It's not arrogant, because I'm not saying "my way is the best way". I'm saying that there is "the best way" (out there), and I was glad to have at long last found it. It's not like I was born an Anglican; my search for Anglicanism was very long and torturous, and I spent a lot of time finding "the best way", to understand how God fully wants his Church to be, and to find places around me that I could plug into that. According to the scriptures and the church fathers, Anglicanism is the best way (possibly the only way, in terms of what's available in 2022). The other traditions sway pretty severely from scripture and from the fathers.

    When I found it, I was blessed. I want others also to be blessed. The Assemblies of God most definitely have an impaired relationship with God, as do the Roman Catholics, etc etc. There's a reason I'm an Anglican, and it had nothing to do with cultural reasons. I'm not very Anglo in my genes. But through the English church, we today have access to the Church of the scriptures and the fathers. We can find some place that gives us the fullness of the Gospel and God's will for men. I will unashamedly say that. Other churches also have the gospel but in a lesser way, and some have it almost none at all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2022
  14. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Stalwart's right, I read about it on Wikipedia's "Apastolica curia stalwartus"
     
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  15. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The official statement in the Latin can be requested from my doctrinal office :cool:
     
  16. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I'll ask for the Latin version thanks. My Latin's not very good I should of course written Apostolicae curae
     
  17. Matthew J Taylor

    Matthew J Taylor Member

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    I am very glad to belong to an Anglican jurisdiction which explicitly recognises the legitimacy of the ministry of those not in episcopal churches:


     
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  18. JoeLaughon

    JoeLaughon Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Absolutely wild there is this much sturm und drang over a very faithful priest coming over. Thank goodness Anglican doctrine is not determined by the posts of a few on Anglican.net
     
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  19. Matthew J Taylor

    Matthew J Taylor Member

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    I wonder how Anglican.net would have handled the Hugenots receiving de facto recognition...
     
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