High churchman here

Discussion in 'New Members' started by youngfogey, Nov 11, 2022.

  1. youngfogey

    youngfogey Member

    Posts:
    43
    Likes Received:
    26
    Born Episcopal. Catholic living on the border with Eastern Orthodoxy, using the Orthodox rite. Formed by Catholic Anglicanism and the traditional Latin Mass. I read the daily psalms from the 1662 BCP.

    I'm a respectful ecumenical guest who shares a heritage with you and I'm ready to learn about Anglicanism as it really is.
     
    Shane R and Br. Thomas like this.
  2. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    2,538
    Country:
    Australia
    Religion:
    Anglican
    Welcome among us
     
    youngfogey likes this.
  3. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    1,645
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    Hi. Pull up a pew and make yourself at home. :signwelcome:
    .
     
    youngfogey likes this.
  4. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    4,188
    Likes Received:
    2,123
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Christian attending ACNA
    Welcome. Buckle your seat belt, and hang on! :laugh:
     
    youngfogey likes this.
  5. Br. Thomas

    Br. Thomas Active Member

    Posts:
    212
    Likes Received:
    155
    Country:
    U.S.A.
    Religion:
    Anglican Catholic
    Welcome to this mix of philosophies and opinions.
     
    youngfogey likes this.
  6. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    4,188
    Likes Received:
    2,123
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Christian attending ACNA
    :handshake: Would you care to share with us some details about your church? If I understand correctly, you attend a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic parish? Or did I get it wrong? I would like to hear what particulars of their liturgy, traditions, theology, etc. stood out and beckoned to you, versus other options in your locale.
     
  7. youngfogey

    youngfogey Member

    Posts:
    43
    Likes Received:
    26
    Thanks, @Rexlion. I have so much to say about all this that I might not get it all down in one go. You understand correctly: I go to a Byzantine Catholic church. Why? Of course that's a big question.

    1. Tradition! Cue the Fiddler on the Roof song. I came from the traditional Latin Mass (TLM) to come to this church but I wasn't running away from anything. Running towards something; positive. I'm an odd-duck layman by Roman standards; maybe that reflects my Anglican roots. Like how Newman was too conservative for the Church of England, in theory trying to bring back a medieval Christianity so he was hounded out, but the Catholics of his day thought he was too liberal. I'm too conservative for the Novus Ordo, regular Catholic, and too liberal for the Catholic traditionalist movement, while respecting Archbishop Lefebvre's crew, saving that Mass and promoting a whole Christian worldview, not just a Sunday religion. At my church I have a traditional service but in English that the people can participate in if they want to, chant, incense, and all.

    2. Eastern Orthodoxy without the attitude. Not accepting contraception or remarriage after divorce, nor saying that the traditional Latin Mass, long a big part of my life/ formation, has been graceless for 1,000 years. I'll add that I'm not one of those Catholics who claims the Uniates are better than the Orthodox/perfect. They're very much not. Often a confused, latinized mess. Part of what drew me to this place six years ago was the then-parish priest was trying to repair that, not pushing the mostly older members too hard but getting the services Orthodox enough. My church has a magnificent 100-year-old gilded wood iconostasis from the old city church that fits the the chancel arch of our present building. One of my regrets is that too many people in and out of Byzantine Catholic churches still think like this, a pervasive problem for generations. There's been some backsliding at my church - the priest put some statues back in the church and brought back public recitation of the rosary - the congregation wants them and he's a Cold War baby who grew up hating the Russians and the Orthodox. I know Slavonic, actually their traditional liturgical language which they don't use anymore, not Ukrainian, and have a picture of the Tsar at home. The priest and I aren't close - he's not my confessor - but we don't have to be. Serviceable sermons about Jesus. It's all good.

    3. Community. Not deep theology, yet: as a teenager in then heavily Catholic New Jersey, I wanted to be on the team. Much more recently, my local church opened close to home around 2015; I've been going since 2016. It's ultimately a merger of three older congregations, the largest of which was in a gritty industrial city. They're older people, some in their 90s, whose parents immigrated right before World War I from Galicia, historically part of southeastern Poland, the home of Ukrainian nationalism and the Ukrainian Catholic Church. A handful of people I don't know are recent immigrants from Eastern Europe.

    The smallish church and congregation are charming, though of course I want this church to succeed. Publicity from the Ukraine war - I'll refrain from politics here - seems to have brought in new people. Like many Anglican churches we have coffee time every week. Here I often listen to stories about how it was growing up with immigrant parents in tough blue-collar towns and when their church was much bigger and thriving.

    Ethnicity can be overdone - phyletism - but I love it up to a point. It can bind a community together. Supressing it or overdoing it will kill the community. A priest to me 35 years ago: the Episcopal Church is extremely ethnic; it's English! Fine with me. The flag-waving during the Ukraine war has been pushing it. But as I say, love of ethnos or country is love of family writ large, a good thing.

    A pervasive problem with Eastern-rite churches in Western countries, both Catholic and Orthodox, is they lose most of their members by the third generation in the new country because of assimilation. That's very true here, hence the merger that formed this church. The "Catholic is Catholic" mindset has been a mixed bag. Many people assimilate that way. They move away and/or marry out of the community; the church authorities think it's a win if they're Novus Ordo. The Greek Orthodox, most Orthodox in America, just fly in more immigrants, restarting the process.

    4. My little corner of England: An accidental connection to my Anglican roots. Because my local church now uses a 150-year-old stone former Presbyterian building complete with an old churchyard and lych-gate, outside it looks just like a little English village church, medieval/Anglican, even though we don't have a tower. I think the deep chancel/sanctuary is a 1950s addition to what was a preaching barn. All that and old-fashioned liturgical worship and pomp reminiscent of Catholic Anglicanism make it feel like, yes, home.

    This was originally a family chapel going back to one man immigrating from Scotland in the 1700s, colonial times. A few graves are that old; most are 1800s. I think the last family burial was buried around two years ago. The remaining Presbyterian family are happy that this is still a church.

    A moving small detail: 60 years before we had this building, the liberal now PC (USA) Presbyterians put in a stained-glass window including Hagia Sophia, a Russian onion-domed church, and a big red Russian cross, acknowledging us as Christian.

    The other options here. There are different kinds of Romans and different kinds of Anglicans. I mentioned I came from the traditional Latin Mass and love it. I'm just doing something I feel called to do, living in the rite I largely learnt from the Orthodox. Pope Bergoglio's (anathema) near-ban of the TLM hasn't hurt people here; the only restriction is there can't be any new TLMs. There's the Novus Ordo, the usual mixed bag, from a few nice high-church parishes to not high but sound (they believe the creed) to stuck-in-the-1970s quagmires. Pope Benedict's improved English translation, closely following the Latin so having the same cadence as the old BCPs, is nice. The Anglicans? Two Catholic Anglican parishes were formative for me. The Episcopalians firmly have them back; your assumptions about that are basically right. One, with TLM-like Anglo-Papalist trappings, is a downtown hangout for some (aging?) male homosexuals, living off a big endowment fund left over from dead rich WASPs many decades ago. Where you go when you want the TLM for your male same-sex wedding. The other one was charming anglophile high-church in an authentic Gothic building in the 'burbs. There is the ordinariate, one church consisting of core groups from the second parish I described and one from another Episcopal church. The Reformed Episcopal Church has a couple of metro-area parishes. By the way, in the city at one of their former parishes, I've seen old-school REC before they high-churched themselves: tiny Communion table and minister preaching in an academic gown. I'm surprised they had a brass plain cross on the table and a liturgical-color pulpit fall.


    If this church fails and Pope Bergoglio's TLM ban is still on, I won't go to the Novus Ordo.


    So why am I what and where I am rather than those options? The Eucharist is Christ's one sacrifice pleaded on the altar: "we wyll haue the masse." In theory, the church is infallible. All that said, I'm not on a proselytizing, sheep-stealing mission. I'm here to learn from YOU: Anglicanism as it really is, not what I used to think it was when I was a would-be Catholic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2022
    Br. Thomas and Rexlion like this.
  8. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    4,188
    Likes Received:
    2,123
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Christian attending ACNA
    Thank you for explaining to us what it is about your current church that warms your heart.

    As you read past and current discussions, you will probably observe that we members of this forum come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences. Each of us is unique, as are you.

    Personally, I grew up Roman Catholic; in our town of 1200 we had a Polish RCC and a French one, the former being our parish. (As a boy I took note that Roman Catholics were not so unified as they claimed.) In my mid 20s the Lord led me out of the RCC and into Arminian-leaning Protestant churches. Then about 4 years ago He drew me to my current ACNA Anglican parish. I find the priest very relatable and down-to-earth with theological views mostly similar to my own, the sanctuary warmly reminiscent of the RC one I grew up in, the greater emphasis on Communion (versus once-per-month or less frequency at my previous Prot. churches) gratifying, and the traditional hymns led from the rear wonderfully refreshing after the insipid, modern fare dished up on the previous Protestant congregation's platforms. The 39 Articles' statements opposing certain RC doctrines strongly resonate with me. I would describe myself as more Molinist, though, than either Arminian or Calvinist. All in all, the view of "what Anglicanism really is" that you might glean from my comments will lean decidedly more low-church-Protestant than those who've always been Anglicans.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2022
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    3,341
    Likes Received:
    1,645
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    How about describing yourself as a Disciple of The Lord Jesus Christ who appreciates aspects of certain denominations worshipping styles and core beliefs? Seeking other disciples of Christ for mutual support. :)
    .
     
  10. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    4,188
    Likes Received:
    2,123
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Christian attending ACNA
    Ah, but there are some aspects of RC doctrine and of certain Protestant worshiping styles which I do not appreciate! :laugh: I have become a fussy curmudgeon in my later years, I guess. But "Disciple of Jesus Christ" most definitely fits! Note that I post my religion as "Anglican Christian" to emphasize that very fact. :yes:
     
    Tiffy likes this.