Has God Save the Queen Ever Been Used to Honor Holy Virgin Mother Mary?

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by DarthJupiter, Feb 26, 2022.

  1. DarthJupiter

    DarthJupiter New Member

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    The lyrics of United Kingdom's Anthem remind me so much of the Hail Mary Prayer esp in how it praises Mary as the embodiment of Virtues and moreso of how she is Blessed by God.

    So it makes me wonder if any Anglo-Catholic and esp underground closet English Catholics back when the UK as openly anti-Catholic.... Ever sang the song directed to May but fooling people thinking they are being patriotic citizens of Britain or are honoring Queen Victoria and later the Windsor Queens?

    I know God Save the Queen came from an old French song devoted to a King surviving the Illness so it makes me wonder if regional variations from Catholic countries have also been used for prayers for women monarchs?

    On a theological can this song be used to venerate Blessed Virgin Holy Mother Mary?
     
  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Well, I doubt it. For one thing, even if Mary were so holy and sinless as to have been assumed bodily into heaven and made "Queen of Heaven," she has zero need of the sentiment, "God save the Queen." For another, Mary is not really queen of anything; she is a person who was (we presume) saved by God's grace through the faith she had in Jesus during her lifetime; were that not the case (a highly unlikely situation) and she did not have faith in Christ, it's too late now (Heb. 9:27).
     
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  3. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    No, I have never known the UK's national anthem used as a song in honour of Our Lady.

    I doubt during Penal Times Catholics were motivated to use the UK's national anthem. Plus the anthem isn't always about a queen (cf. below).

    Which 'Windsor Queens' [sic]? The House of Windsor has only had one queen [regnant], i.e. the current monarch Elizabeth II. When we have a king the national anthem is God save the King. Therefore, during a lot of our history its words do not relate to any queen let alone the Blessed Virgin Mary.
     
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  4. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    I thought the lyrics to the National Anthem were bound up with the anti Jacobite sentiments of the mid 18th Century. ie "confound their knavish tricks".
     
  5. ZachT

    ZachT Well-Known Member

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    It seems unlikely. I also don't really see how the lyrics could apply to Mary.

    From every latent foe,
    From the assassins blow,
    God save the Queen!
    O’er her thine arm extend,
    For Britain’s sake defend,
    Our mother, prince, and friend,
    God save the Queen!

    Was Mary known for being assailed by assassins? Or known for being a prince (ruler)? Seems like a long bow to draw.
     
  6. DarthJupiter

    DarthJupiter New Member

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    What say you of this comment regarding using GSTQ to honor Mary then?



    [QUOTE="ZachT, post: 53374, member: 3867"Was Mary known for being assailed by assassins? Or known for being a prince (ruler)? Seems like a long bow to draw.[/QUOTE]

    Escaping to Egypt is one example.
     
  7. ZachT

    ZachT Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the implication was that Herod murdered the families of the children. It was Jesus who was under threat, not Mary. I also don't think Herod was sending assassins after them regardless, that implies something a little more subtle than the organised and open murder of all the newborns in a town. It just seems a stretch to me is all.
     
  8. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Holy Family went to Egypt because an angel appeared to St Joseph in a dream to tell him to take his family to safety. It wasn't the Virgin Mary's decision. They went to avoid Herod's massacre of male infants. That is they went to protect Our Lord and not specifically His mother.
     
  9. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    Then how come Luke 2 says


    On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise the child, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he was conceived.

    Jesus Presented in the Temple
    22 When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”............

    27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required,........

    39 When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. 40 And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on him.

    Where does the trip to Egypt fit into Luke's storyline?
     
  10. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    It slots in during verse 40: "And the child grew..." We don't know exactly how long after Jesus birth the magi showed up; it is thought that their journey brought them to the right place somewhere between 6 months and 2 years after His birth. They worshiped Him in a house where the family lived (not in a manger, Matt. 2:11), and this visit spurred Herod to begin killing children up to 2 years of age; this is when the family fled to Egypt.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2022
  11. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Active Member

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    If this be true, then why does Matthew say

    "When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi." ? (Matt 2:16)

    I don't think Nazareth is in the vicinity of Bethlehem especially by 1st century standards .
     
  12. ZachT

    ZachT Well-Known Member

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    Because Herod didn't know the King born in Bethlehem didn't actually live there?

    Regardless Herod didn't order Mary to be assassinated.
     
  13. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Good question. Let's look at what it says (and what it doesn't say).

    Mat 2:3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
    Mat 2:4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
    Mat 2:5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
    Mat 2:6 “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
    Mat 2:7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared.
    Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.”
    Mat 2:9 After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was.
    Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.
    Mat 2:11 And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
    Mat 2:12 And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.
    Mat 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.”


    Herod heard that Bethlehem was the place of birth. He sent them to Bethlehem. They all assumed that the child would be in Bethlehem since, as you point out, people were not very mobile back then. None of them could know that they were living in Nazareth. But when the magi resumed their journey, they saw the star again and it led them to the house where they were staying.

    Now, we have to realize that the writer isn't trying to give us all the fine details. Did the star guide them all the way to Nazareth (which probably was at least 2-3 days' journey)? Or were Joseph, Mary and Jesus staying overnight in a house close to the Jerusalem 'metro area' because it was the season of Passover (Luke 2:42)? Or something else? We don't know for sure.

    Nonetheless, Herod never got word whether Jesus & family were anywhere other than (at or near) Bethlehem. So Herod gave orders to be carried out in that area.
     
  14. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Matt. 2:13ff.
     
  15. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    What ever can you mean by this?
    No Jews except Mary, (who kept these things in her heart), Joseph, Simeon and Anna, had faith in Jesus until he started his ministry and 'came out' as Messiah.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2022
  16. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Hi Tiffy! :clap:

    Mary didn't leave this earth until well after Christ's ascension. When she departed this earth, Mary believed in Him (we assume, but with good reason to so assume) as her Redeemer. If Mary is in heaven, my point is that she needs no prayers or sentiments for God to save her; He has done so. If Mary were appointed regent (queen) in heaven, that goes double, doesn't it? No need for anyone to ask God to save the Queen of Heaven.

    Whether Mary had faith in Jesus prior to His earthly ministry or not is beside the point, and is not what I was trying to get at. I hope I've clarified my meaning. :tiphat:
     
  17. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely! Point made. I would point out though that any Jew or even Israelite under the Old Covenant, believing in and trusting in a coming Messiah would have salvation according to the terms of the covenant God had with them, until such time as they failed to recognise Jesus of Nazareth as their Saviour. Until they actually failed to keep covenant and keep faith with God, they would have been saved. So not too late for them until they chose to reject their Messiah, and even then Paul indicates in his epistle to the Romans that he was confident God would keep covenant with them, even if they failed to keep covenant with Him. We Gentiles are fortunate that for the time being they have made way for us to be included in the benefits of the New Covenant.
     
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