From ACNA to Episcopalian

Discussion in 'Church Strands (Anglo-catholics & Evangelicals)' started by Invictus, Dec 20, 2021.

  1. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    If you look at the history of ACNA, what you see is that it was founded when whole dioceses pulled out of the Episcopal Church, and formed the new body which became ACNA. Could the same argument be made there, that the bishops merely asserted their divinely given jurisdiction, in opposition to the national province now apparently heterodox.
     
  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I was arguing from the Roman position. I of course thing Rome had errored and the CoE reformed itself against those errors.
     
  3. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    During the 4th and 5th centuries, much of the clergy (and laity) not only endorsed Arianism but actively persecuted the ‘pro-Nicenes’. Each of the major Eastern Sees were under Arian control for extended periods. Athanasius himself was deposed from his See at Alexandria four times and forced to flee into exile. The solution of the ‘orthodox’ party was not to setup rival bishoprics in these centers, but to patiently regain control of the ones that had always been there, so that orthodoxy might prevail everywhere. Had they opted for the schism route, they would have cut themselves off from any realistic possibility of bringing the Arians back into the fold. They understood that one cannot engage an opponent and run away from him at the same time. Schism therefore would have been self-defeating. The goal was to eliminate the heresy, not for some party, somewhere, to maintain ‘correct belief’ at any cost. What you’re describing is akin to what the Russian ‘Old Believers’ did; where are they now?
     
  4. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Trinitarians in the early church were like the Russian old believers. There is no substantive difference between them (on the natural level). It's just that over time the trinitarian party has won, while the old believers have lost, so you're assuming there was some substantive (natural) difference between them. There wasn't. You're just shooting the arrow and then painting the target around it.

    The only difference was supernatural. On the natural level it was exactly the same thing. In one case the same exact strategy ("the fight fore pure truth") has won, while in the other it has lost. You cannot draw a conclusion that the very idea of a "fight fore pure truth" is always, in every case, and in in principle, wrong and misguided.

    And if we look at the projections on the TEC vs. ACNA trajectories, it's not even funny how the ACNA trajectory is like the trinitarians, not like the old believers. During Covid the TEC has used an excuse to close down all their churches, and sever all their people from their church habits. But ACNA has kept their churches open (sometimes in contravention to the laws). So in just the last year alone, TEC has lost something like 100k members, while statistics show that ACNA has retained 94-96% of its membership.

    Considering that over the last 20 years, TEC has been losing about a diocese every year, it is an effortless mathematical projection to see that it will simply go out of existence in 20 years.
     
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  5. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    You need to look deeper into history and not a the surface and understand the history. If you look at the long defeat of Arianism you did in fact have separate churches set up in most places. The Orthodox went to one and the Arians went to the other. Who ever was in power often persecuted the other and had the better church buildings. There was also continual campaigns to convert the rulers to Orthodoxy. Look at how the Latin West eventually over came Arianism. It was in just such fashion. But bringing up Athanasius is a great point. When he was banished and exiled he always had a undefiled church or monasteries to run to. So he did. He fought the good fight and he won. Unfortunately in the TEC the orthodox party lost. So they then chose the model that eventually led to the final defeat of Arianism. They had their own churches and played the long game. They did nto try to move in and take over Arian churches.

    But in regards to the TEC you can have the orthodox faith and the faith of the fathers or you can have the faith of the TEC. You can't have both unless all those in the TEC repent.
     
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  6. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Speaking of the diocese of Albany which Bishop Love used to oversee. The Episcopal Church moves quickly:

    "Diocese of Albany Promotes False Unity as it Abandons Biblical Marriage with Fly-in Bishop"
    https://virtueonline.org/diocese-al...nity-it-abandons-biblical-marriage-fly-bishop

    "the Episcopal Diocese of Albany will get a bishop, a woman bishop at that, who will provide what is euphemistically called "supplemental episcopal pastoral support", to allow the full implementation of resolution B012 - homosexual marriage -- thus surrendering to the therapeutic and heretical over sound teaching."
     
  7. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a really interesting article @Invictus . It's interesting seeing it from another perspective. I started as Episcopalian first and tried to find a new home in the more conservative branches and keep finding my way back at my TEC home parish.

    I try as best as I can to ignore the national church and stay local. Similar to the article's author.
     
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  8. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I’m glad you enjoyed it! He did a good job explaining his reasons in a non-polemical way. It was refreshing.
     
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  9. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    You keep repeating that, but until you show how or when the Episcopal Church repudiated Nicea and Chalcedon, or justify your own rather expansive understanding of ‘dogma’, such polemically charged statements are likely to fall on deaf ears. What I hear in the Daily Office, the Sunday Liturgy, and our priests’ sermons, is the same Gospel faithful Anglicans have been proclaiming and living for the last 500 years: the Trinity, the Incarnation, man’s need for redemption, Christ crucified, raised, and coming again in glory.
     
  10. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Some might find a conservative, Biblically run TEC parish. But for how long? With the secularism and ungodly teachings filtering down from the episcopacy, it's only a matter of time (probably a very short time) before the rot in the tree trunk spreads to the farthest branches. Meanwhile, the tree is weakened and could topple at a gust.
     
  11. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Neither of these are criteria for me. What is distinctively Anglican is the use of the Prayer Book, and adherence to it is what I look for in a parish. If that element is present, everything else falls into place.
     
  12. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    The orthodox faith never taught moral evils the TEC does so it can’t hold or be part of the Orthodox faith. It has trappings of it for sure and devout Christians can exist there but it’s allowance for moral evils is just a step to far to keep it in the orthodox fold
     
  13. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by Orthodox faith? Are you referring to Eastern Orthodox?
     
  14. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Small o orthodoxy not big O as in the EO or Oos
     
  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I meant religiously conservative: holding to the faith of our fathers. With services, homilies, and matters of discipline that are not inconsistent with Biblical principles.
     
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  16. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    My apologies; I tend to think of “conservative” as more of a political term. Thanks for clarifying.
     
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  17. JoeLaughon

    JoeLaughon Well-Known Member Anglican

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  18. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know what you mean.
     
  19. JoeLaughon

    JoeLaughon Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Being troubled by ACNA's problems or irregularties (which are there) seems like a rather weak tea compared to the immense heterodoxies and even outright heresies tolerated by TEC
     
  20. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I’ll leave it to God to separate the wheat from the chaff.