Erasmus or Luther

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by Dave, Dec 24, 2021.

  1. Dave

    Dave Active Member

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    I've read that Anglicanism was more influences by Erasmus than Luther, although many would claim it to be more Puritan

    Where could I find theological resources that describe any effort that the believer must provide?
     
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  2. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Anglicans and Puritans could not be more different, indeed they fought a bloody and brutal war, the only civil war in the history of England.

    As for Erasmus and Luther, the historic consensus was that they were both wrong on free will. Erasmus was wrong that we have free will when it regards choosing the supernatural; that would be a heresy of pelagianism. Luther was wrong that we don't have free will in the natural realm; that would be today called determinism. In fact late in his life Luther approved of free will in the natural realm, although there wasn't a whole book about that so it's not as famous as his early views.

    In short, our position is that we have free will in regards to natural things (life in the world as we normally experience it). As for regarding God, initially we don't have free will, and he must give us prevenient grace first, but after that, we are freely able to accept or reject him.
     
  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Hi Dave,

    I think there's a lot of overlap between the Augsburg Confession and the Articles of Religion, with a notable exception being the respective teachings of the manner of the presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper.
     
  4. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Erasmus visited the court of Henry VII, and was close the Thomas More, who was friend and Chancelor to Henry VIII. Henry VIII had some dealing witha nd exposure to the thinking of Erasmus. Erasmus wanted change in the Church, more of a renovation than a reformation!
     
  5. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    Because God wishes that all would come to repentance, and because He "is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34), He gives everyone an equal chance by dealing to every single person "the measure of faith" that is necessary to come to Him. Thus, everyone has prevenient grace and is freely able to accept or reject Christ.

    (That said, God also knew from before the foundation of the world which persons would accept Him and which ones would reject Him.)

    That's what the Bible says, and I don't really care what Erasmus or Luther said! :p
     
  6. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    They were each indirectly influential in complicated ways. I suggest taking a look at vol. 1 of the Oxford History of Anglicanism. The discussion is robust, and there are numerous references to primary sources that you could investigate further.
     
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  7. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    I would place Anglicanism between (Luther) Wittenberg and Geneva (Calvin). Famous Reformed theologians, such as Martin Bucer and Peter Martyr Vermigli, would have a major impact on the theology of the Anglican Church. Delegates from the Anglican Church would attend and sign onto the Synod of Dort, which affirmed TULIP and condemned Arminian views. King James would applaud the decision of the Synod and appoint the English delegates to high positions within the Church of England after the Synod.
     
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  8. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    If memory serves me right we did not sign onto the synod of Dort, one of the leaders of our delegation believed in Christ total atonement , and another leader after leaving Dort said he was done with the Reformed. Also our formularies were such as the 39 articles were developed well before Dort. All in all even if someone agreed with Dort at best it could be their own beliefs but it was not the belief of the church.
     
  9. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    There were English representatives at Dort (sent by King James), but its pronouncements were never endorsed by Parliament, so they were never binding on Anglicans.
     
  10. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    The Canons were adopted by the Synod and their approval was affirmed by the signatures of all the English delegates. While Davenant and Ward rejected Arminianism they maintained a view of the atonement which held that Christ in some respect had died for all. In this respect, the English delegation were in a clear minority (https://spindleworks.com/library/brj/brj_Nov99_english.htm).
    The formularies of the Church of England would not preclude a Calvinist understanding of Predestination in line with the Synod of Dort.

    Article XVII strongly supports a Calvinist understanding:
    Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honor.
    "...for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation."

    Archbishop John Whitgift also drew up the Lambeth Articles of 1595 as a clarification of Article XVII due to the emerging Arminian controversy:
    1. God from eternity hath predestinated certain men unto life; certain men he hath reprobated.
    2. The moving or efficient cause of predestination unto life is not the foresight of faith, or of perseverance, or of good works, or of anything that is in the person predestinated, but only the good will and pleasure of God.
    3. There is predetermined a certain number of the predestinate, which can neither be augmented nor diminished.
    4. Those who are not predestinated to salvation shall be necessarily damned for their sins.
    5. A true, living, and justifying faith, and the Spirit of God justifying [sanctifying], is not extinguished, falleth not away; it vanisheth not away in the elect, either finally or totally.
    6. A man truly faithful, that is, such a one who is endued with a justifying faith, is certain, with the full assurance of faith, of the remission of his sins and of his everlasting salvation by Christ.
    7. Saving grace is not given, is not granted, is not communicated to all men, by which they may be saved if they will.
    8. No man can come unto Christ unless it shall be given unto him, and unless the Father shall draw him; and all men are not drawn by the Father, that they may come to the Son.
    9. It is not in the will or power of everyone to be saved.


    "The Reformed doctrine of predestination and election is constitutive of Anglicanism. Any suggestion to the contrary reveals more of an alien influence upon Anglicanism rather than the doctrine of the historic formularies. There was little disagreement among the Reformed churches of Europe about the key points of this doctrine." - Rev. Canon Henry Jansma Ph.D
    (https://www.reformation21.org/blog/39-articles-grace-alone)
     
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  11. Carolinian

    Carolinian Active Member Anglican

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    "Oh, Mr. Pym, this breaks the heart," lamented Sir Richard Grosvenor in the House of Commons in 1629; "if God be God, let us follow him, and if Baal be God, let us follow him, and no longer halt between two opinions."' The Baalites, it was clear to the Commons, were the Arminians, who threatened "the very ruin and desolation if not dissolution of Religion in this land."
    Such was the threat of Arminianism that when the Commons presented its Protestations on March 2, the first article read, "Whosoever shall bring in innovation in Religion, or by favor or countenance, seek to extend or introduce Popery or Arminianism or other opinions disagreeing from the true and orthodox Church, shall be reputed a capital enemy to this Kingdom and Commonwealth."
    Among the most vocal of the opponents of the Dutch Arminians was James I, King of England and Defender of the Faith. Fearing that a suspected Arminian would gain the prestigious chair in theology formerly held by Arminius, James wrote to the Assembly at The Hague to reconsider its offer to Conradus Vorstius. Vorstius's doctrinal unreliability had been obvious to James. A man willing to defend the 'ability of men to change God's edicts, wrote James, could certainly not be depended upon to advocate any system of morality which relied upon God's omnipotence. "For what will not hee denie, that denieth the Eternitie and Omnipotencie of God."4
    John Yates, fellow of Emmanuel College, Cambridge, found that Montagu's moderation on these points subverted the doctrine of the Church of England. Montagu's position, he declared, seemed to hark back to that of the Dutch Arminians whose theology had been condemned by the Synod of Dort in 1619. Accordingly, Yates and Samuel Ward, an Ipswich minister, petitioned the House of Commons to prohibit the publication of Arminian views in England.

    Certainly, Archbishop Whitgift, James I (King of England, Defender of the Faith, and Head of the Church of England), and Parliament had a better understanding of the doctrine of the Church of England than the Dutch Remonstrants that they so heartily condemned. It is hard for me to believe that Archbishop Whitgift, King James, Parliament, and John Yates did not have a full understanding of the doctrinal positions of the formularies.

    -Arminianism and the English Parliament, 1624-1629 by Dr.Hillel Schwartz
     
  12. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Even with those signatures I don't think Dort was accepted by the English Church and by your own admission the English delates were not 5 point Calvinists.
    Article XVII is very Augustianian. It only deals with Single Predestination. An Armenian could easily confirm this and in fact they did. All you are listing after this in this post and the following post were how the King and others felt at the time. In the 1700's and 1800's the church swung more towards the Armenian line. Either way Dort was never accepted into the church. The articles were written before the Reformed thought was really a thing. Anglicanism is not a mid way point between two things. It is a more like a Triangle that has 3 points. It does seem Lutheran, it does have some elements of Reformed thought in it, and it is also Catholic in ways. The thing is that we are all of those things because we looked to the Bible in the Fathers. When they got it right we agree with them. When they don't we agree with them.
     
  13. JonahAF

    JonahAF Moderator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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  14. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    This doesn’t contradict the fact that Parliament never endorsed Dort.
     
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