Doubts

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by seagull, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I was pleased to hear Justin Welby say that he believed "every word" in the Nicene Creed. It would be worrying if he did not. I'm sure Vincent Nichols does too. But I heard him interviewed one and he was asked if he'd ever "had doubts". "Of course I have," he replied, "but I overcame them". A very honest and respectable answer.

    Now I'm not a member of the clergy, just a person in the pew. I don't even think of myself as particularly religious. And I'm not sure if I believe all that's in the Creed(s). But the odd thing is, no-one's ever asked me! On another forum I did write a "doubter's creed" (based on the Apostolic) and received no comments except from a kindly agnostic. The Atheists shy away from doubt. But Anglicans understand it (and I suspect that in practice so do RC, except perhaps those of the Ratzinger variety).
     
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  2. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    I had a lot of doubts as a Catholic, never really experienced peace. Now that I have found the CEC I really do not have doubts any more, I still have a love for the Catholic Church but I feel more better in the CEC
     
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  3. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    care to share with us the doubter's creed (I like the irony of the title, well done)? Are the affirmations of the creed still troubling you? What do you doubt, given that in another thread I believe you said you believe the Nicene Creed? What do you have reservations about?
     
  4. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I'm off to nine o'clock eucharist soon, but I'll do my "Doubter's Creed" later. No, I'm not troubled, though possibly I ought to be. Remember the quote I alluded to elsewhere to the effect that the CofE is "mature enough to recognise doubt".
     
  5. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I'll use the Apostolic Creed for brevity's sake.

    I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth. Yes

    And in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord. Yes

    Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary. Not sure, but I don't deny it.

    Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried. Yes

    He descended into Hell; the third day he rose again from the dead, He ascended into Heaven and sitteth on the right hand of God......Probably.

    From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. Hope so.

    I believe in the Holy Ghost; the Holy Catholic Church; the Communion of Saints; the forgiveness of sins. Yes

    The Resurrection of the body. Not sure.

    And the life everlasting. Hope so.

    *****

    Please remember that the CofE is a tolerant church. We don't go in for thought police or have an all or nothing mentality.

    Also, of course, I cannot prove any of the above.
     
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  6. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    Anglican than allows for the unorthodox, see Christianity is all or nothing
     
  7. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    I suspect that most lay Anglicans and many western RCs would come forward with a "creed" similar to mine, though Pope Emeritus Benedict would go along with your hypothesis, possibly even to the extent of excommunicating those who use contraception. But, thank God, he is yesterday's man.

    Do I take it that the "CEC (Anglo-Catholic)" is intolerant and has thought police and feels that its definition of Christianity is "all or nothing"?

    Posts like yours make me so happy to belong to a kind, tolerant, loving Church.
     
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  8. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Seagull, I think you're treading dangerously close to engaging in an offensive ad hominem. You've already confessed that you are not familiar with the CEC, so you are in no place to suggest that it is "intolerant and has thought police". You can make points without belittling my friend or his church. show some of the kindness and tolerance that you learned in the CofE.
     
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  9. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    Indeed Lowly Layman. Seagull's response is how a liberal responds to things and people like him are the reason Christianity is in the shape it is in. I sure hope this board doesn't get over run with liberals who think that Christianity is relative and you can believe whatever you want
     
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  10. BrethrenBoy

    BrethrenBoy Member

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    While I don't presume to talk for Seagull, I don't think he's saying that Christianity is relative. Even the most liberal Christian family members would say that there are several things you must believe in order to be Christian. You can't expect me to believe you have never had some doubts or had your faith waver. Even the greatest of the Saints struggled with this. And both sides in debates over theology or orthodoxy need to make sure them don't start making personal attacks on each other. We're all going to disagree eventually, but we can at least try to be civil about it.
     
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  11. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    When I was in the Catholic Church I had doubts about that but never about my faith.
     
  12. Celtic1

    Celtic1 Well-Known Member

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    To see just how kind, tolerant, and loving that liberals really are, just challenge their modernist version of the faith. They are about as kind, tolerant, and loving as fundamentalists on the right. In fact, liberals are simply leftist fundamentalists.

    And I am not talking about anyone in particular because some here I don't know that well yet.
     
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  13. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    A few points. I merely asked a question, albeit perhaps a fairly loaded one, about whether the CEC was intolerant of doubts, as the CofE is not and, I suspect, Ratzinger is/was. The "all or nothing" approach of "you have to accept without doubt everything that's in the Bible and the Creeds or you're not a Christian" is implicitly intolerant and very hard to enforce. At least I am being honest about my beliefs.

    As for being "unorthodox", well, I've been going to my local church for five years, and the Vicar said to me recently that when I joined, she knew that I was "one of us". I don't think she regards me as a "leftist fundamentalist". But please feel free to challenge my "modernist view of the faith" (whatever that is).

    As for "believing whatever you want", well both the Anglican and RC Churches allow freedom of choice on creationism.

    I note that I am being labelled "he" and "him".
     
  14. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    It's not the doubts it is your taking of unorthodox Christian position, weather the CofE allows it is irrelevant. There are certain tings that Christians have at their core that identifies them as Christians and one you start questioning these than your playing with being outside of Christianity and The Apostle's Creed is one of those core things.

    Christianity and Christ are an all or nothing proposition. You say that the CofE and the Catholic Church allow freedom for views on creation, fine however members like to belittle others who take a view that God did create the Earth weather it's a OEC or YEC that is why those who have a Creationist view bristle when someone comes in and starts belittling them.

    I am not tolerate because it now means license to believe anything one wants and that is not historical orthodox Christianity, one must accept things on faith even if they d not understand things.
     
  15. seagull

    seagull Active Member

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    i) "Unorthodox Christian positions". So you're saying that being an evolutionist makes me and the vast majority of English mainstream Christians unorthodox? Also I do not regard myself as being "outside the Apostolic Creed". I am not denying any of it.

    ii) You say that you are "not tolerate". By this I imagine you mean that you are not tolerant. Does that go for the "CEC"? Is their stance, "you must believe in creationism or you're out"?
     
  16. historyb

    historyb Active Member

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    I'm not talking about Creation, I am talking about the positions you take regarding the Creeds and you well know that.

    Edited for unnecessary comments.
     
  17. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    More edits had to take place. Please cease with personal commentary and focus on the issues at hand.
     
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  18. Lux Christi

    Lux Christi Active Member

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    The contemporary Canadian collect for Saint Thomas the Apostle from "For All The Saints" is rather lovely, because it allows doubt as part of our Christian path, rather than shunning it. If Christ himself said that through the blindness of a person, the glory of God is manifested in such a one, then can we not also see doubt in the same manner?


    ALMIGHTY and everliving God, who didst strengthen thine Apostle Saint Thomas with faith in the resurrection of thy Son: Strengthen us when we doubt, and make us faithful disciples of Jesus Christ, our risen Lord. Amen.

    Saint Thomas the Apostle, pray for us!


    I consider myself a good and aspiring member of the Anglican Church of Canada (I have not been officially received yet, but I hope so by this coming Easter). I consider myself Anglo-Catholic, as well as one of the so-called liberals, progressives, what have you. Also agnostic theist, so one could absolutely add to my list of 'labels'. Although I am a liturgical traditionalist, that is for sure.

    I think that doubt is a very healthy thing to have, and I believe that all Christians of all stripes, from the more conservative ones to the liberals, should have so. If God did not believe in having doubt, he would not have instituted Saint Thomas to become an Apostle! If we did not have the angry, would have have the Apostle Saint James? Or how about those prone to pride, such as Saint Peter the Apostle?

    I really truly believe that doubt can keep us all away from our own certainties. It is one reason why this whole 'saved' phenomenon is so un-Christian to me: we are to work our salvation 'with fear and trembling,' knowing that while we do have such an inheritance towards beatific vision, our human misgivings remind us of our own mortal nature. It is healthy to doubt.
     
  19. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't know about healthy, but maybe typically Anglican. Once, a priest asked me qhat one calls someone who's Roman Catholic two days out of the week, Calvinist one day, atheist one day, and agnostic the rest of the time?Answer: a good episcopalian...so it goes.
     
  20. Lux Christi

    Lux Christi Active Member

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    Lawl! Good joke! :D

    Doubt can give us genuineness in our dealings with life. I also know that doubt can be destructive, especially when it concerns having trust in another person. But spiritual doubt is always of a good dose.

    In my childhood Roman Catholic parish, I was attending Confession once, and I confessed to my priest that I did not feel any miraculous or spiritual feelings with God... actually, I told him that I felt my spiritual life was rather dry, and full of doubt. He told me, that when we experience dryness in our spiritual life, it is a calling from the Lord Himself to bring us deeper into his mystery, to move more into the Spirit, and to quench our thirst with more abundant streams of living water. It was certainly a zenned out experience for me at that point.
     
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