Crossed the Tiber, but want to come back

Discussion in 'Questions?' started by S. DeVault, Aug 19, 2020.

  1. S. DeVault

    S. DeVault New Member

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    Hello everyone.

    Basically I was very active in my Anglican Catholic Church parish and I left for the Roman Catholic Church this was because:

    1. I was afraid that Anglican orders are invalid. (Because Roman Catholics said so I guess)
    2. That I couldn't really be forgiven my sins without confession because Christ have those powers to His disciples.
    3. My parish is dying and the grass looked greener on the other side

    For the last couple weeks, I've been feeling an urge to go back to my Anglican parish. There's just so much @extra@ stuff in Roman Catholicism. Between novenas, consecrations, sacramentals, and constantly being worried about being in a state of mortal sin, I'm in a very poor mental and spiritual state. But, for some reason, I'm terrrified that if I return to Anglicanism, to Protestantism, that I'll be damned forever. I've drank so much Roman apologetic kool aid that it's hard to shake. Please pray for me. I really need help. Comfort knowing that Anglicanism is acceptable, and a path to God. That the orders are valid.
     
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  2. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    The only 'orders' you need to concern yourself with are "Love God and love your neighbour as yourself", with the primarily crucial new commandment of Jesus Christ, "Love one another as I have loved you". Get all those right and you can belong to almost any church which you consider to be doing the same as you are, following HIS orders.

    You don't need prayers. All you need is Assurance of Salvation and Holy Spirit Regeneration in circumcision of the heart. Stop worrying and step out boldly in faith.
    .
     
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  3. mediaque

    mediaque Active Member

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    You will be in my prayers!
     
  4. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    The remedy is to read these and similar scripture verses. These are great promises of God to you (and to all believers).

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Are you beginning to see what God has done for you? If you will simply (stop trusting the Roman church and instead) trust Him! If you will cast your burdens upon the Lord, and tell Him something like this, from your heart to His: "Oh God, I could never be good enough to deserve anything good from you; but here, take my sins! You said you would save me by the gift of your gracious favor because you love me. Thank you! Thank you for dressing me with your own garment of righteousness! Thank you for placing the ring of sonship on my finger, like the prodigal that I am!"

    Our loving, heavenly Father will never let you down. He will not turn away anyone who comes to him in sincere repentance. Give no more thought to the condemnations of a broken religous system. Do not fear what any man can do, be he a Roman priest or otherwise. When God justifies you, no man can condemn you!

    Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
    Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
    Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
    Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
    Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    God loves you. He really, really loves you!
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
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  5. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Welcome, brother. :)


    This is a common concern among non-RCs who are afflicted by scrupulosity. The easiest rebuttal to it (not that it works for the scrupulous, but it is valid, and exists), is that in 1969 the Roman church had rewritten all seven of their sacraments. So for example, confession became 'reconciliation'. And what many people don't know is that the re-written 'sacrament of holy orders' has the exact same wording as the Anglican Rite of Ordination. Meaning that if the polemic of Apostolicae Curae against Anglican orders is true, then all novus ordo RC orders are invalid as well.

    But of course, in 1897 the Anglican archbishops had penned the famous rebuttal of Apostolicae Curae, named Saepius Officio, which you'd do well to peruse:
    http://anglicanhistory.org/orders/saepius.pdf

    It's not wrong, because confession does exist in the Christian framework, and evangelicals often do wrong by pretending like it doesn't exist. However, the question is which confession, how, where, and to whom. In the ancient Church, among the fathers who were much greater than any roman pope of today, the teaching was to conduct an inward confession within public liturgy, and to receive a public (conditional) pardon predicated on repentance. That is exactly what you will find in the Anglican confession which takes place every single time, in the Liturgy of Holy Communion and in the liturgies of Mattins and Evensong (morning and evening prayer).


    That is a pretty standard issue, unfortunately, among anglo-catholic parishes. My anglo-catholic brothers will disagree, but I have to say my piece. These parishes (especially the really serious ones) had compromised on their organic Anglican identity in service to the exact same Romanist polemic that you fell prey to, without swimming the Tiber. But Rome of course can play the Roman game much better than an anglo-catholic could. So you do not see anglo-catholic parishes growing; people are not sure why joining one is better than just the full Roman thing. However as you note, the full Roman thing is really bad, and almost unrecognizable to the ancient Fathers, so its claims are completely dubious.

    To inject a positive note, I want to encourage you to find other Anglican parishes in your area. They may not be anglo-catholic, but you will definitely find growth there, as I have seen.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
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  6. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Hi SDV,

    I am an Anglo-Catholic, too. Father Vernon Staley makes a compelling argument for the Apostolic origin of Anglican orders in Chapter 3 of his book, "The Catholic Religion" (https://archive.org/details/catholicreligio00staluoft/page/x/mode/2up).

    To calm your fears with regard to the RCC's bull rejecting Anglican Orders (Apostolicae Curae), keep in mind 2 things, which have been discussed or at least hinted at to some degree already:

    1) The updated Vatican II ordination rites would invalidate RC orders under the logic of Apostolicae Curae, so you're in the same boat in either church; and

    2) Even if Apostolicae Curae's conclusions were true (which I do not believe they are); the issue is merely historical at this point, since the 1552 rite that Leo found so deficient was corrected in 1662, as the papal bull istself noted, and since Old Catholic and Scandanavian Lutheran bishops, the validity of whose clerical bona fides the RCC has never contested, have long participated in the laying on of hands for Anglican consecrations. So even if a deficiency had been present at one time, it had been removed even by the time the papal bull was written.
     
  7. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I just don't believe any of that papal bull. :p Neither should you!

    (If they don't want double entendres, the RCC should rename their bulletins....) ;)
     
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  8. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    In the early church there was no private confession. At most someone would have to publicly list major sins like murder, adultery, or apostasy. There was only a general confession and absolution. But if your conscious bothers you go talk to your priest and let him reassure you that your sins are forgiven. We have private confession if you feel that you need it to quite your conscious but if you repent your sins are already forgiven.
     
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  9. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    You will never be comfortable in a Novus Ordo Roman Catholic parish. The 'average' American Catholic will depress you. You will be the most Catholic person in the room and the rest of the congregation will look at you like you have three eyes. The average Mass attendee goes either out of some sense of family obligation or for a weekly session of (almost) free therapy.

    I've worked with a number of people who go back and forth between Roman churches and something else. The Roman priest always gets them to question the validity of the sacraments in the other fellowship. I reached an epiphany several years ago when I realized the efficacy of a sacrament is primarily dependent on the action of the Holy Spirit.

    Now, the issue of your Anglican parish dying is more difficult. It could be that you might be a catalyst for renewal or it could not. Some parishes reach a terminal point and die and there's nothing to be done for it.
     
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  10. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Good Evening,

    I was in your position. I crossed into Rome and crossed back. My reasons maybe different than yours, which is fine. I want to address your 3 points and maybe help you with them and add my own view.

    1. Leo was led astray by Cardinal Vaughan of England in his pronouncement of Anglican Orders. Much falsehood and ignoring of history on the part of the Roman Catholic Church. Cardinal Poole under Queen Mary announced Anglican Orders valid during his term of 1556-1558. He reviewed the Edward Ordinal and Rome found no problems with the ordinations of the English clergy at that time. Vaughan was under the delusion that if Rome declared Anglican Orders invalid, we Anglican would abandon the Church and join Rome. Rome usually falls for these schemes as it massages her ego. The Ordinariate being another example. Other have told you how Rome has changed the ordinal for Roman priest in the 60's. Pope Pius changed the ordinal in the 40's and even declared all ordinations from that date forward not using his method to be null and utterly void. All this to say, Rome contradicts herself constantly. Since Leo, many Roman theologians have stated Leo was wrong. The latest is Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio the President for the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts in 2017.

    2. Don't understand this one. If you were in the ACC they have the sacrament of confession. As others have said Anglican Eucharist, Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer have confessions and absolution. You can even made an appointment to visit with your priest if you wanted personal confession. Also, the majority of Romans do not make private confessions. That is why most Roman parishes, if they have confession, only have it for about 30 minutes a day or every few days. Anglican and Roman priests have the same powers given by Christ to bound and loosen.

    3. Dying parish. So. Worship is not about you. What are you doing to turn that around? I took over a parish that was dying. Even after I got there, more funerals than baptisms. Families leaving. The remaining families, kept praying and praying and praying. Then started doing. Even with covid, we have had baptisms, first in 7 years. First Communions, Confirmations. Getting ready for another baptism next month, if baby arrives. Have more people getting ready for Confirmation next January. We have visitor each Sunday. More and more are staying. The Holy Spirit is replacing those who left for what ever reason. What I am saying, don't complain about a dying parish. Do you part. Pray and spread the Gospel.

    It does anger me that Rome has so conditioned you so you would think you are damn if you leave them. That is not Christian, that is cultist. I would suggest you talk with your former Anglican priest. Or another priest.

    I looked over your profile. You state you are ACC and you join this forum group recently, last 2 months. How long have you been Roman Catholic? Are you back in an ACC parish. I would suggest you read a book by your Archbishop Haverland "Anglican Catholic Faith and Practice" It will help you with your questions and concerns.

    blessings

    Fr. Mark
     
  11. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    @Mark what communion are you in?