Characteristics of the Church

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Rexlion, Jun 4, 2021.

  1. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    Characteristics of Christ’s Church

    Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


    The church of which Jesus Christ spoke is founded upon Him. Jesus built it upon Himself and upon the truth that He is “the Christ, the Son of the living God.” People who recognize this truth, who in faith recognize Jesus Christ as the crucified and risen Redeemer, are joined to Him as part of His church.

    When we partake of the Eucharist, we are reminded that we are in Christ, a part of His body on earth, and that Christ is in us.

    Jesus Christ, and Him alone, is head of the church. He is its leader and controller. He joins us, fits us together, and binds us together as a unified body, one in Him.
    Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


    Ephesians 2 likens the church to a building, a living temple, with its parts fitted together by God, with Jesus as the “chief cornerstone” and the apostles and prophets serving as the rest of the building’s foundation.
    Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


    As His ecclesia, we worship Him in spirit and in truth.
    Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    Christ rendered the temple sacrifices obsolete.


    Christ’s ecclesia contains both Jews and Gentiles on an equal footing. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    All members of this ecclesia are joined together in the body by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


    Jesus is our advocate, our intercessor, the one who goes between us and the Father.
    Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    Christ, the prince of peace, gives His people rest.
    Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
     
  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    Characteristics of The Church in the Wilderness, Israel

    The Israelites whom God led out of Egypt comprised a church also.
    Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
    Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


    What are the characteristics of this ecclesia?

    This church was gathered together under Moses.
    Exo 6:13 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, and gave them a charge unto the children of Israel, and unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

    Moses acted as the go-between, the one who made intercession with God for the people.
    Num 14:17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
    Num 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
    Num 14:19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
    Num 14:20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:



    Moses, not the Holy Spirit, communicated the words of God to the church.
    Exo_35:4 And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD commanded...

    This church did not know their Redeemer, Jesus Christ. They could not believe in Jesus. This church was not founded upon Christ. They were not living parts of the body of Christ on earth. They were not fitted together as His temple. It should go without saying that Christ’s body on earth could not exist until after Christ came to earth.

    The people of this church did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, for He had not yet been sent. They were not joined in unity by the Holy Spirit.
    Joh 7:39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.
    Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


    This church did not have the Eucharist. For a time, though, they had manna, which was a type and foreshadowing of Jesus Christ, but they did not understand it as such; to them it was little more than food that became tiresome for lack of variety.
    Num 11:4 And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?
    Num 11:5 We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick:
    Num 11:6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.


    This church did not worship God in spirit and in truth. They worshipped Him by the prescribed rituals set forth by God to Moses, featuring daily sacrifices before the Lord’s tabernacle. The church in the wilderness was so disobedient, God swore in His wrath that they would not enter His rest; all but a faithful remnant died in the wilderness, and only their children entered the promised land. But even these children, along with their descendants, tended to be fickle, disobedient, and unfaithful. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, they continued to worship God with reluctance and by prescribed ritual.

    When Jesus said, "Upon this rock I will build my church," this must have marked the beginning point in time when He began building His church.

    Conclusion: The two churches detailed by the Bible have vastly different characteristics. The two churches received different dispensings from God. Therefore, the church that existed prior to Christ’s first advent could not have been part of the church of Jesus Christ. It was a church, but it was not the church of redeemed believers in Christ Jesus, of which we are members.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  3. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    More differences between the churches:
    The church of Israelites was formed as a national church, to live within geographical boundaries, on land designated for it by God, with a theocratic government (at least initially, until it clamored for a monarchy). Gentiles were as a general rule excluded from membership.

    The church of Jesus Christ is a universal church. It transcends and crosses all geographical boundaries and political boundaries. Rather than being an ethnic church it is a spiritual church. Jews and Gentiles are on an equal footing in this church.
     
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    But this is a wrong conclusion born of being misinformed and ignorant of certain key facts to be found in both Old and New Testaments and the misinterpretations of both, influenced by 'Dispensationalistic' faulty reasoning.
    .
     
  5. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    I'm confident that you or others will enlighten me with those key facts. :yes: That's what this thread is good for. Have at it! :laugh:
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  6. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    You are not entirely wrong in everything you have written for us to study. How could you be, most of it was Holy Writ, the very stuff of truth but Prov.18:17 is truth also and sometimes turns tables but I shall have to take all this a point at a time because there will be a lot to get through. (and some might take time to sink in)

    Nothing essentially untrue about anything you've said. Apart from the tacit inference that Jesus Christ did not have a church until Pentecost and Peter came along.

    In the New Testament the people of Israel are called the Church. Acts 7:37-38. The HE that is spoken of here is not Moses but CHRIST. How can Paul say, as he most assuredly does:
    "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Cor.10:1-4.

    God separated the Hebrews from all the nations of the earth so that they might become His own people and constitute His kingdom. It is to them that the oracles of God were entrusted. They were Israelites : it is to them that the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God , and the promises belong Rom. 9:4. One cannot say more than this of the Christian Church.

    The Israelites were chosen with a view to forming a church, that is to say, with a view to their being God's witnesses in the world on behalf of true religion, the promoters of His worship, and the keepers of His commandments. Their religious authorities, their prophets and their priests, were set apart by God and were his ministers. No one could become a member of the nation of Israel without taking the place of a disciple, without promising obedience to God's law revealed in His Word, and without submitting himself to the rite of circumcision which is the seal of the covenant.

    No authentic definition of the Church can exclude the Church of the people of God in the Old Testament.

    Semantic researches in connection with the word ecclesia have confirmed this point and have shown that in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament qahal was translated by ecclesia.

    God in fact did not conclude His covenant in the first place with Adam, then with Noah, then with Abraham, then with the Nation of Israel and only last of all with Christ. Christ came already with the credentials of Chief Shepherd to a flock which was scattered and in need of its rightful leader. Matt.10:5-6, Matt.15:22-24.

    That flock is "the little flock" Luke 12:32. That flock is The Church. A remnant perhaps, but definitely the same "little flock" Ezek.34:11-16.

    Matt.16:18. Whose was the Church of the Old Testament which you say was "a church" but not 'The Church". Whose do you suppose, was that Old Testament Church, (ecclesia). St Paul say's it was Christ's and that Abraham was preached the Gospel. Gal.3:8. And Christ was slain "before the foundation of the world". Eph.1:4, 1 Pet.1:20, Revelation 13:8. And of course we also know now, or we should, that Jesus Christ is the one God who said - Ezek.34:11-16.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    I think your reasoning runs dangerously close to indicating doubt that Jesus of Nazareth could be Christ. Certainly it was not Jesus of Nazareth that was known by the Church in the wilderness as their redeemer. In that you are correct but there were a lot of things they didn't yet know and that is not to say that Moses did not get his commands from Christ. Christ has always been the Second Person of The Trinity and the Trinity has always been One God. If you are trinitarian in your theology it has to be admitted that Christ is indeed the LORD and Exo.35:4 is clear who is actually giving the orders, and it's not Moses. What discussions do you suppose took place between Christ, Moses and Elijah? Matt.17:1-8. Was Christ consulting them or were they consulting Christ in the consultation, and if this happened once in time, (which the chosen disciples were privileged to witness), how many other such 'church business meetings' took place when Moses received his 'orders' from the LORD, (Christ), but no one was there to witness the encounter but Moses and perhaps Elijah? Deut.5:22-33.

    Correct, it should not be said, and we should go without it being said, because it's not true. :laugh:

    The body of Christ is the church on earth and the church in heaven. The Church in heaven does not consist only of those who lived and died after the birth, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus of Nazareth. The Church consists of all those who have been given to Our LORD, the Christ by The Father. John 3:35, John 6:65, John 17:1-13. It consists of all those who are written in the Lambs Book of Life and have not had their names blotted out. Christ has redeemed them all from Adam onwards. It is they that are The Church of Christ, all that have ever placed their faith in the LORD their God and not refused to walk in His ways.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
  8. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    A building's foundation is its most essential component. Luke 6:46-49.

    The old testament 'Church' i.e. the people of God, guided by the Prophets that God ordained, was itself built upon a sure foundation. 1 Cor.3:9-11. Without that foundation work (unseen but overseen by Christ as its LORD), the New Testament 'Church' would have had no scriptures for Jesus of Nazareth to quote in support of His Messiahship. No record or knowledge of the promises of God to His church and the nations, to either accept or reject. No obligations under the Law to God, that it either kept or failed to keep. No 'people' for its Lord and Saviour to be born into, but largely, admittedly, to be rejected by, apart from those "who received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God", in every generation. (The atonement covers the whole of History, not just the portion after Jesus ascended into heaven. Just as it covers the whole of your life, not just the portion after we gave in and got ourselves 'saved').
    .
     
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    Lack of 'The indwelling Holy Spirit' is not essentially a disqualification preventing The Church from being The Church. The Holy Spirit is our guide to 'Truth', replacing The Law as our 'schoolmaster'. Gal.3:24-25, and enabling the Church to live the life intended for even the Old Testament Church. No change there.

    The disciples and Apostles of Jesus were the Church, before ever they became 'in-dwelt' by the Holy Spirit, which had not yet been given during their time accompanying Christ on earth. They were still the Church though, (ecclesia), HIS assembly, given to him by God the Father and chosen by HIM. John 6:70, John 15:16. It is being chosen by Christ, that makes one a member of HIS Church. Receiving the in-dwelling Holy Spirit is but an added extra for sanctification, education and ministry of us as individuals, within Christ's Church, not a specifically distinguishing feature of Christ's Church, which actually makes it, His and without which it cannot be His Church.

    Paul's assumption was that there are Christians in Christ's Church who, are as yet, not "Filled with the Spirit", even after Pentecost. We might even suspect we know a few ourselves. That does not disqualify them from membership of the Church of Christ. It just renders them less useful to Christ in His mission to the world, through His Church, and even often a pain in the butt to the other members, making "Keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace," problematic. :hmm:
    .
     
  10. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    The Eucharist does not make us the Church just as eating manna did not make or not make, the Children of Abraham, the Church. They already were.

    The Eucharist is something the Church now does but what it represents as a sacrament is no different than what the Passover Meal sacramentally symbolised for the Old Testament Church. Only the focus of the symbolism has been updated as a memorial of an even greater act of emancipation, redemption and salvation by God, than was the exodus from Egypt for the Old Testament Church.

    The Eucharist is a development of the sacrament of the Passover Meal, not a completely New innovation in the Church on earth. That can be seen simply by looking at the time that the Last Supper took place and why those who attended it were there.

    Circumcision, the other sacrament of the OT Church has been similarly developed and has now become baptism, but signifying symbolically likewise, the self-same seal of faith and obedience to God.
    .
     
  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    Some would say there are large portions of the New Testament Church that didn't in Paul's time and still don't today.
    This too sounds very much like some of today's visible Church denominations and sects.
    That rather depends on what exactly Jesus was looking at when he spoke those words I suppose.

    When thinking about the Eternal, Triune God's purposes, and initiatives, it behoves us to be cautious about making hard and fast statements concerning exactly when God began doing or thinking about doing anything, especially about the way God the Holy Trinity set about preparing His Church.

    οἰκοδομέω: STRONG’S NUMBER: g3618 Dictionary Definition. οἰκοδομέω oikodomeō; from the same as 3619; to be a house-builder, i.e. construct or (figuratively) confirm: — (be in) build(-er, -ing, up), edify, embolden.
    AV (39) - build 24, edify 7, builder 5, build up 1, be in building 1, embolden 1;
    to build a house, erect a building to build (up from the foundation), to restore by building, to rebuild, repair. metaphorically: to found, establish, to promote growth in Christian wisdom, affection, grace, virtue, holiness, blessedness, to grow in wisdom and piety.

    So there is plenty of room in the words "I shall BUILD my church" for the notion that Jesus Christ was not starting something NEW but was restoring something already existing but delapidated, into a previously intended, fully funtioning reality. This refurbishment of His Church was actually part of His mission on earth. Seeking the lost sheep of Israel, among which His disciples and followers were numbered. Peter was merely representative of the type of 'faith' and 'enthusiasm' that Christ requires of His Church, in all 'Dispensations', from Adam to the New Jerusalem.

    There is a lot more to οἰκοδομέω than just "building a house" or "Starting a Church". It does not necessarily only mean a beginning of construction.

    The word also means, and is used elsewhere in scripture, to refer to "Restoration" and "Repair". Figuratively even to embolden or confirm, (i.e. fully and permanently establish and fulfill, what essentially already exists).
    .
     
  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    You appear to be contending that anytime the word of God refers to the "ecclesia" it is referring to the on-and-only Church founded upon Jesus Christ. Is that correct?

    Or will you admit that the meaning and implication of "ecclesia" is dependent upon the context in which it was written, such that it does not always indicate the one-and-the-same Church?
     
  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    This statement demonstrates the problems caused by 'Dispensationalist' thought. It's desire to divorce the Old Testament from the New and better Testament, as if the Old was defective and the New, a salvage attempt, to replace an un-worthwhile failure of an Old Testament project, on God's part with a brand spanking, shiny, new, power steering, multi seated, spirit fuelled, NT Turbo model.

    This New Automobile is a real automobile, and any previous ones, without any of the additional features, were not even real automobiles at all. No passengers got anywhere worthwhile by riding in them, (no one was saved and no one is saved unless they ride in the New model). But that's their own problem, if they are already long dead like Abraham, Moses and all those others. Their fault they never had a real Church.

    You speak as if The Abrahamic covenant had no spiritual blessings attached but that is very far from the truth. The covenant with Abraham, (which is in effect the Covenant of Grace), is primarily a covenant bestowing spiritual blessings.

    The promises of the covenant are those of various temporal blessings which, more often than not, are symbolical of blessings of a spiritual nature.

    The covenant contains the promise of justification, that of the adoption of sons, and of the right to eternal life.

    The covenant contains the promise of the Spirit of God with a view to the full and free application of the work of redemption and of all the benefits of salvation.

    The covenant contains the promise of final glorification in a life which shall never end.

    The covenant contains the promise that God will be equally the God of the posterity of believers.

    Had not the church been limited necessarily in its membership, at first, it would never have fulfilled its God intended destiny of becoming in due course, universal. The Church untimately is what God decides it shall be, in any 'dispensation'.

    There is no reason whatever to suppose that the national church of the Israelites, with its geographical boundaries and temporal promises, is not the Church of Christ purely because of those boundaries and promises.

    In fact the boundaries and promises are not essentially part of the Covenant of Grace made with Abraham, but originate with Moses, 400 years later, which makes them merely an adjunct.

    It is the covenant with Abraham which is an everlasting one and its promises are essentially those of the New Covenant revision which re-asserts them, and which are purely, in nature, spiritual.
    .
     
  14. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    I am saying that in Acts.7:37-38, "This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers.’ This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He [Moses now this time, not Christ], received living oracles to give to us" [the Israelites, heirs to the promises of the Covenant of Grace].

    This is the one,
    refers to (The prophet like unto Moses), who in fact is Jesus Christ. And HE spoke to Moses at Mt Sinai and was in the congregation in the wilderness, with the angel and with the Isrealites.

    Christ was with His Church, in the wilderness. Scripture says so. You had better believe it. :laugh:

    Have you never understood Acts.7:37-38 to mean that?
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
    Invictus likes this.
  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    This is a strong bit of evidence. There is another interpretation to explain this seeming conundrum, but that alternate interpretation is not very convincing to me. We have evidence on both sides of the issue. If we are to conclude that the church back then and the church since Pentecost are one and the same church founded by Jesus, then how to reconcile the two bodies of evidence? The reconciliation which presents itself most readily is this: Although they are one and the same church, God dealt with the church differently back then than He deals with the church today, and these differences is God's administration of the church are called "dispensations" (Eph. 3:2; Col. 1:25). Under the previous dispensation, God made the church subject to the Mosaic Law, God did not freely dispense the indwelling Holy Spirit, etc. Under the current dispensation, God has freed the church from the curse of the law and has sent the Holy Spirit to all members of the church, etc. Can it be claimed by any thinking Christian that God dealt with them and with us identically? The fact that He didn't is plain upon its face. (Remember, though, I'm not at all contending that God has changed, only that God anticipated changing circumstances in the course of human civilizations and lives, and He planned accordingly even before Adam.)
     
  16. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    You succeed in building the case that God did not treat the church the same in all ages, but led them by progressive steps (as on a staircase) into greater and greater truth and revelation of Himself. The church of Moses' day was not yet ready to have full understanding of their coming Messiah (indeed, for generations they though the Messiah would come as a conquering king rather than initially a humble servant).
     
    Tiffy likes this.
  17. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    No change? NO CHANGE? NO CHANGE??? (Well, no change in the church still being the church, I get your intended meaning. But...) replacing the Law with the Holy Spirit was a huge, MASSIVE, MONUMENTAL CHANGE in how God dealt with and related to the church!
    :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
  18. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    Yep! I'll go along with that OK. The Church 'Develops' under the guidance of Christ, in the form now of the Holy Spirit, just as it did during Christs 3.5 year ministry on earth and its soujourn in the wilderness in OT times. God does not change, neither according to scripture does Christ, being the same yesterday today and tomorrow. I'm quite certain that God intends the Church not to stationarily stagnate but to progress, even as far as the gates of Hell and beyond. I see 'dispensations' as stages in a progression toward perfection. Not as distict separate 'acts' of scrapping and crushing the old vehicle and going to get a new one from the showroom. The Church of Christ is constantly being renewed. 2 Cor.4:16, Eph. 4:23, Col.3:10.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
    Invictus likes this.
  19. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,421
    Likes Received:
    1,196
    Country:
    USA
    Religion:
    Anglican Christian
    To your side of the advocacy that the church is still the same church, Tiffy, I will add this scripture:
    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not
    .

    One could say, if the Lord Jesus saved the people out of Egypt, then He (Jesus) was saving His (Jesus') church out of Egypt.
     
  20. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

    Posts:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    933
    Country:
    UK
    Religion:
    CofE
    Ahh! but it shouldn't be, should it. The Law should be a delight to us, because it is perfect. Ezra 7:10. Ps.19:7.

    As the French say about something else though. "Vive la difference". A monumental change indeed!
    .
     
    Invictus likes this.