Cases of aberrant devotions to Mary in the Roman Church

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Stalwart, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Here is just one case, and I’m sure there’ll be others added over time:

    https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=22778.0

    “Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.”

    Sole conscientious objector raises a concerned voice:

    “Is there even one among you, even the most zealous devotee of Mary, who will stand behind this assertion and not see it for the pagan denigration of Jesus and inversion of the Gospel that it is?”

    and he’s informed of the larger traditions behind this:

    “There’s a very strong movement within Catholicism for it, and it’s spurred on by some 19th century Papal Quotes and Marian apparitions.

    See “Marian Movement of Priests.”

    In 2008, there was also a letter sent by 5 cardinals to have Benedict confirm it as a dogma, which he never did.”


    The original poster adds this:

    Running away, are we? When you said, "I really don't care what Alphonsus Liguori had to say. His "Glories of Mary" is a work of blasphemous idolatry.", you showed how ridiculous and anti-Catholic is your thinking. You exalt yourself above such a holy Doctor with great temerity and false accusations against him.

    Mary is Mediatrix of all Graces, and She made congruous (not condign) satisfaction for all sins, like Pope St. Pius X teaches us. I proved that there from Popes, Doctors and Saints already, when you began rejecting them all. I'm not going to do that again here. Better humble yourself and read St. Alphonsus again with docility, if you love Jesus Christ and His Only True Church, outside of which there is no salvation.

    Pope St. Pius X: "11. If then the most Blessed Virgin is the Mother at once of God and men, who can doubt that she will work with all diligence to procure that Christ, Head of the Body of the Church (Coloss. i., 18), may transfuse His gifts into us, His members, and above all that of knowing Him and living through Him (I John iv., 9)?
     
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  2. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Marian veneration leads slowly but inexorably toward (in the direction of) heresy. I'm not surprised to see that some have crossed that line into heresy. The fact that most have not (yet) done so ill-justifies the practice. Better by far to steer clear of Marian piety altogether IMO.
     
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  3. Spiritus

    Spiritus New Member

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    I had heard about a push for the idea of Mary as Mediatrix to be declared a dogma. What the cardinals in question proposed was odd to say the least but what the posters in that thread were espousing was really over the top. Then again I shouldn't be surprised considering where it's coming from.

    I have a pretty serious devotion to Mary myself but I'm more than willing to admit there has been some weird stuff developing out of Marian veneration throughout the years. It's crazy how in this current climate with the Vatican spreading heresy and even pagan worship that some in the traditional circles have decided this is the right time to jump on the crazy train. There's a good reason Mediatrix, Mary being present in the Eucharist, Mary as part of the trinity (in what world does that make sense?) etc are not dogma and have all been rejected by popes and numerous theologians. Why they think dredging up fringe devotions and heretical ideas is going to fix the Church is beyond me.
     
  4. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I don't know for a fact, but I read somewhere not long ago that over 1 million letters, requesting/advocating that Mary be proclaimed co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix, have been received by the Vatican.

    It's dangerous, spiritually speaking, when people start to believe that they receive salvation by anything other than God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It turns my stomach to read some of the error-ridden beliefs of the RCs in that thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
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  5. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    This sentiment is itself heretical according to the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis of which Stalwart and I are fans, being the false doctrine of the Antidicomarianites. It was also the justification Nestorius used in attempting to impose Christotokos. The Antidicomarianites were one of two opposed heresies, the other being the Collyridians, who are like RC mariolaters. Both were wrong.

    Today, we cannot allow either Collyridianism or Antidicomarianism, and the embrace of the latter by radical Reformed, non-denominational and Restorationist sects in response to the embrace of the former by Catholics causes those sects in many cases to also embrace the vile doctrine of Nestorius, which is repugnant to Anglican values and condemned by the Council of Ephesus.

    Rather the Anglican and Eastern approach to the Theotokos is correct, which is to venerate her but not worship her, as she does not desire worship; the veneration of the Theotokos points to the Son. It should also be remembered that most Anglican cathedrals and many parishes have a Lady Chapel dedicated to the Theotokos, and the Rosary is a devotion used by some Anglo Catholics (although I prefer the Jesus Prayer myself). And there is a rosary-like devotion in Russian Orthodoxy, the Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov.
     
  6. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    1. That group consists of the followers of “Our Lady of Europe”, an apparition ruled false by the CDF, where a demon appeared to a poor Dutch lady, impersonated the Theotokos, made a fist gesture, and demanded the Church declare the Theotokos to be Co-Redemptrix, the so called “Fifth Dogma.” Mercifully, the Roman church has not done this, and we need to pray that they do not, because I do desire Roman church improvement and reform so as to facilitate ecumenical reconciliation and eventually the restoration of communion (with Anglican churches and Orthodox churches officially recognized as autocephalous and not subject to Papal jurisdiction). Remember though, Our Lady is not regarded as co-redemptrix by the Roman Catholic Church or the majority of Roman Catholics.

    2. It can be profitable, I have found, when, for example, the actions of the Episcopalian bishops in the US become too much to bear and one feels sapped of the strength to even reply polemically, to back off and focus on working out one’s own salvation with fear and trembling.
     
  7. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Your devotion strikes me as well within the marks. The radical doctrines you describe are the heresies of the ancient Collyridian sect, and in modern times are being pushed by the Ida Peerdeman / Our Lady of Amsterdam/Our Lady of Europe people, as the “Fifth Dogma” and by the Medjugorje people, and these people are insane. And Cardinal Schonburn violated ancient canon law by leaving his diocese of Vienna and going to Medjugorje against the wishes of the local bishop, who has been fighting it for years. I really admire the Bishop of Mostar and his predeccessor, who was villainized in a pro-Medjugorje film made by Martin Sheen! A poor ethnic Croation bishop in Herzegovina, being singled out and targeted by Hollywood, because he rejected as false the claims of a group of pot-smoking teenagers some of whom claim to see Mary “on demand” exploited by a rogue Franciscan province in an effort to maintain control of a parish church they were supposed to hand over to the Diocesan clergy in the 1880s, when it was decided their province should be wound down as a regular diocese had been implemented following the the region being conquered by Austria-Hungary, ending the brutal Turkocratia which in the case of the Croatians had required the use of Fransiscan friars to minister to them, under the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith (Propaganda Fide). The Fransiscan “spiritual director” of the Medjugorje seers had the arrogance and temerity to attempt to directly present himself before Pope John Paul II and was later excommunicated if memory serves. And of the seers, in contrast to earlier apparitions the RCC regards as legitimate, even dubious ones I reject (and people should remember, approved apparitions remain optional beliefs for Roman Catholics, which helps; not much but it does help), such as Lourdes and Fatima, produced no vocations. And several of the seers have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar (presumably the kind that get you baked), in terms of, for example, one seer claiming the Virgin Mary desired the financing of a hotel to occur so construction could proceed, for the benefit of pilgrims. It turned out he had an undisclosed financial influence in the project.

    I really admire the struggle of the Bishops of Mostar against that insidious sect. They make me feel like there are still some decent bishops left in the Roman church. I also like the Bishop of Marquette, and the Archbishop of San Francisco, a conservative traditionalist miraculously appointed to that city, where he has been cleaning up the homosexuality and restoring the traditional Tridentine liturgy, and also encouraging the Dominicans to celebrate their traditional Latin mass, and has made the parish St. Mary Star-Of-The-Sea an Oratory, like the celebrated Brompton Oratory adjacent to Holy Trinity Brompton in London (from whence hails Archbishop Justin Welby; I am not a huge fan of HTB).
     
  8. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The big problem here is what people mean by "veneration". Too often, veneration becomes worship, if there's even a distinction to be made, which I'm not clear that there is. Because of this grave concern, while we do have Lady Chapels, and we do have parishes named "St. Mary's" and the like, yet we never invoke her or any other saint in our prayers, for we direct all of our piety (venerations, worship, etc) to God alone.
     
  9. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Many Anglo Catholics do say the Rosary, et cetera. But, even if you object to that on the grounds of a low church interpretation of the 39 articles (which is a valid interpretation, although I believe the Rosary can be considered permissable under the 39 Articles if the prohibition of the Invocation of Saints is understood to refer to the invocation of them in the context of worship, or the adoration of them, which is idolatry prohibited by the second commandment), dedicating a chapel to St. Mary is an act of veneration sufficient to meet the requirements of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. So there is no problem here. And I can’t object to people not wanting to say the Rosary. I actually do have a problem with the Rosary myself, and one which does connect to a violation of the 39 articles, but which also connects with Orthodox theology, and that is, the so called Mysteries of the Rosary, which I believe constitute a fond thing, vainly invented, because they involve the imagination, and in my opinion do risk leading into Latria. There would be a better way to liturgically cover the life of the Theotokos which would not result in a devotion which would risk the occurrence of Latria among the poorly catechized or involve the use of the imagination in prayer, which is itself dangerous. However, there are professed Anglicans on this forum, who have the Badge, who do say the Rosary, so presumably it is not entirely beyond the pale.

    The slippery slope argument that veneration leads to worship is furthermore refuted by the experience of the Eastern churches, especially the Oriental and Assyrian churches, where there is no trace of Mariolatry. But even an EO service like the Akathist is clearly veneration and not worship. It is the Romans who have a problem with doulia and hyperdoulia (which is permitted in the case of Our Lady owing to her status as the holiest human being fathered by a man) becoming Latria. And they in general have problems with this not confined to the Theotokos, but which extend to other saints as well. And these problems extend to the inappropriate use of statues not for decoration but as iconography which is venerated. This is a huge problem from an Orthodox perspective. It just looks wrong to have Classical style statues which look like the idols of Greco-Roman Paganism, repurposed as Christian icons.

    This is why this is precluded in Orthodoxy.

    Also, with regards to Coventry Cathedral, I really greatly dislike the new cathedral, and wish they had rebuilt the old, in the manner of the Frauenkirche (dedicated by Lutherans to the Theotokos, which again, I consider an act of veneration we can all support), and one major problem I have with the new Coventry cathedral are the frightening copper sculptures, particularly that of St. Michael, which looks wrong. I would like to see that cathedral razed and rebuilt in a traditional manner. There are too many ugly modern churches in Britain as it is. So I say, tear it down, and put Prince Charles in charge of building a new one. The result would be something beautiful and traditional.

    Now some people would protest that the current cathedral, with the skeletal remains of the old one, is somehow neccessary as a reminder of the horrors of war, but to that, I would say fooey. I think it would be a much more fitting memorial to rebuild the old cathedral, just as the Frauenkirche was rebuilt, and in particular, a better tribute to the heroes of the Allied Armies who fought to defend Britain and Europe from the Nazis. And a rebuilt Coventry Cathedral could incorporate the land of the old and the new, so a replica of the old cathedral could serve as a memorial chapel to the veterans and the martyrs and confessors of World War II, like the Christians martyred by the Nazis, such as the Confessing Church in Germany, people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer (but he is venerated disproportionately owing to his intellectual status; this monument should be general, to all Christians killed or tortured by the Axis, for reasons of faith).

    Returning to St. Mary, you and I are almost certainly on the same page on this issue, because if we return to St. Epiphanius, we see two clearly defined heresies: Antidicomarianism, which rejects all veneration and the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos, and Collyridianism, which worships her, believes her to be present in the Eucharist, makes sacrifices to her and considers her a God. The correct course is neither, according to St. Epiphanius. And the problem is fundamentalist Protestants who are Antidicomarian Nestorians, and wackadoodle Papists and schismatic Catholics like the Palmerian Catholic Church, which embrace Collyridianism and consequently are Gnostic.

    Indeed the Ecclesia Gnostica, an openly Gnostic church with Roman Catholic trappings, does connect Mary with Sophia, which is just wrong and a pernicious doctrine.
     
  10. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I’d just like to say that trying to eschew veneration to the saints is not “low church”. Those labels are no longer useful in the world today.

    “Low church” refers to low ceremony and ritual. I am all for the highest traditional Anglican pomp and circumstance, processions, chants, etc., without thinking that I have to offer what looks like reverence or worship to anyone except the Lord my God, my savior and my redeemer.

    Many from the the Roman and Orthodox worlds think that where the desire to abolish ceremony and ritual impoverishes our liturgical life, so the desire to limit our reverence to God alone likewise impoverishes our spiritual life. I on the contrary would posit that focusing on God alone enriches our spiritual life. So I’m a high-church God-alone Christian (ie. traditional Anglican).

    And I think that St Mary was with me on this one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  11. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    St. Mary, our most blessed and glorious lady, the Theotokos, most certainly is with you on this one, as am I. But I am not with our friend Rex, because St. Epiphanius did forbid Antidicomarianism and Collyridianism both, and I believe you and I have a common point of reference in the Panarion.

    Let me be clear I am not trying to say you are low-church or attribute a churchmanship to you, nor do I think we actually are of a different mind on this point. Indeed on all points of theology,I have found your views to agree with mine or even be expressed in superior terminology, which is why I have declared that you have an Orthodox (as in Eastern Orthodox) Phronema, and what is more, this identicality of beliefs causes me to consider there is no difference between Orthodoxy and Anglicanism once we agree on terminology and also set aside the pernicious influence of Jesuits and other Papists who have sought via subterfuge to influence our respective communions. Rather, we have the case of a non-Anglican who unwittingly expressed an Antidicomarianite sentiment.

    It is entirely desirable to offer worship to God alone. And indeed, what looks like worship generally is worship. But, engaging in acts of veneration, like naming a church for the Theotokos, is acceptable, provided that this veneration is done to glorify God.

    Another area where we see the worship/veneration distinction is in the regard offered to the dead. The Chinese practice ancestor worship, by making offerings to them: food, Hell bank notes (that’s what they are called these days; previously they were called Joss Paper), and other things. Indeed the poor Chinese actually do live in fear that their ancestors will inflict harm upon them on two days out year, one in the Spring and one in the Fall, known as the Qingming Festival and the Hungry Ghost Festival respectively. These actions exceed even the macabre grotesquerie seen on Halloween, a morbid distortion of what the feast of All Saints ought to be about, and the related excesses of the Catholic requiem masses that follow (I have seen liturgical paraments advocated by the popular Tridentine Latin advocate Fr. Z with an actual, highly corrupt skull and crossbone sewn into it :o :sick: ), and by the way, note that no Eastern church does anything like this, and the even more macabre crypto-Aztec horrors of The Day of the Dead. The Santa Muerte cult would be another example by the way of what we might call “necrolatry.”

    On the other hand, our practices of naming buildings after the deceased, and placing them in beautiful cemetaries, and placing fresh flowers on their memorials, is not worship, but proper veneration, and this veneration is what I see as being desirable and allowed under traditional common prayer.

    Now here is something to boil your blood, not literally by the way, as you are a person whose blood I should never wish to see boiled, not that I desire anyone to actually experience their blood boiling (I have heard this can occur if one is exposed to the vaccum of space, although the effect is not as gruesome as depicted in films, and brief exposures such as that endured by Dr. David Bowman in 2001: A Space Odyssey, are believed to be survivable; also a small hole in a spacecraft will result in only a slow depressurization, unlike on airliners, due to the lack of suction-producing airspeed), but rather figuratively, in the sense that you should want to know this, and that is that the Roman Catholic church, after having endured the martyrdom of all of its missionaries and followers in China, and all other Christians besides, under the Kangxi Emperor, because the Dominicans and Franciscans disagreed with the Jesuits who approved of ancestor worship, by correctly insisting that it was wrong, only to change their mind in the 1940s and embrace the Jesuit position! And, even more offensively, the Episcopal church that dares to call itself after St. Gregory of Nyssa painted the Kangxi Emperor on the ceiling in the style of a Byzantine saint; when I did casually ask them about this in a neutral manner, on their online Disqus, they called me a religious bigot.

    So therein is a good reason why you are well off to be in the ACNA apparently. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
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  12. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I would assume also @Stalwart that you would agree in principle with my assesment of the horrors at Medjugorje.
     
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  13. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Absolutely.
     
  14. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Jolly good. By the way, can you help me with my thread on the Church of Scotland by asking the most knowledgeable British members known to you? As I am dying of curiosity.
     
  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but I am talking about historical fact, and you can't call facts heretical.

    You will say that your church is proof to the contrary. The Orthodox Church may not be there yet, but the directional trend is visible and evident in the history of the church.

    Those who play with fire almost always get burned, sooner or later.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  16. Religious Fanatic

    Religious Fanatic Well-Known Member

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    I pray the Anglican rosary exclusively. My prayers are to begin with the cross by saying the Apostles' creed, then the first invitory is the Pater Noster, then the cruciforms are the Gloria Patri, and the weeks are the Jesus Prayer. These are all focused on scripture and traditional prayers and not the ones prescribed on the dominican rosary.
     
  17. Liturgyworks

    Liturgyworks Well-Known Member Anglican

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    You argued that Christians should not venerate the Theotokos. This is a heresy according to St. Epiphanius of Salamis, writing in 360 AD, called Antidicomarianism. He holds it in contrast to Collyridianism, which is the worship of Our Lady. Both are wrong. St. Mary is the greatest Christian who ever lived, and the most worthy of veneration; more worthy than Martin Luther, or John Wesley, who I like by the way, or St. Jan Hus, or St. Paul the Apostle, or St. John the Apostle; her perpetual virginity was affirmed by all of the Protestant reformers, including Cranmer, Calvin, Lutheran and Wesley, and the reason for this is she gave birth to God, meaning she was physically closer to God and emotionally closer than any other human. In comparison to this intimacy, the relationship of St. Moses and St. Abraham to God was distant and at times confrontational, even though that relationship was far closer than most people ever get.

    But the Theotokos is not venerated for her own sake, but rather, the veneration of the Theotokos inclines our hearts to worship Jesus Christ, because it reminds us of the fact that God became human and endured every human misery in order to redeem and glorify fallen humanity.

    If God were not infinitely loving, he could have written us off as hopeless, as some fathers believe is the case with the devils (who they argue became entirely sinful and are thus irreedemable; others believe God will even wait for their repentance, but herein one must be careful to avoid the Universalist heresy).

    We also follow the example of the Theotokos as the definitive model of Christian piety and obedience.

    There is no such directional trend visible in either the 2,000 year history of the Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, nor is such a directional trend visible in the 500 year history of Anglicanism.

    Conversely, the Roman Church, which started to have problems under Leo I, and which became schismatic under St. Photius intermittently from the 9th century, and which separated itself fully from Holy Orthodoxy 1,035 years ago, started to display an inclination towards the Collyridian heresy almost immediately, as though someone flipped a switch. It was a binary transition, from normal veneration to abnormal worship, not just of the Theotokos, but of other saints as well.

    Now most Protestants simply resumed normal veneration, like the Anglicans and Lutherans, but the Radical Reformation cults, and they were cults, who tended to reject the deity of Jesus Christ and/or impose severe discipline on their followers, or call for civil unrest, decided to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater and conflated veneration with worship owing to their lack of theological comprehension. And lest you dispute me on the status of those groups as cults, the Anabaptists engaged in violent rebellions in Germany, and the Puritans of Great Britain were the worst, being directly responsible for the English Civil War and the Salem Witch Trials, and all these groups practiced Scientology-style shunning. They preached a different gospel (Galatians 1:8).

    This is a curious expression to use because God is a consuming fire, however, the Orthodox and traditional Anglicans do not play with Him.

    The Puritans did, with their Nestorianism, Antidicomarianism and crypto-Pelagian Chiliasm, and are now extinct and justifiably regarded with derision as representing one of the worst heresies ever to afflict Christianity. By the 1730s, Puritanism was practically extinct in the New World, and by the American Revolution, all former Puritan churches had either become Congregationalist or were contemplating Unitarianism. The Unitarians secured Harvard, founded by John Mather and presided over by his son the nasty Cotton Mather of the Salem witch trials, but most of the parishes fortunately went to the Congregationalists, who established Yale as a replacement.

    So Puritans did play with fire, and they did get burned out of existence. And the current dean of Harvard Divinity School, Karen King, is basically a full-on Valentinian Gnostic. She also got duped into buying an alleged Gnostic “gospel” which turned out to be a carefully made forgery; its heretical content and implications of discord in the early church were irresistible to her and caused her to skip over that important step I like to call “due dilligence.”
     
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  18. Brigid

    Brigid Active Member Anglican

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    Very good post!
     
  19. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Let’s be careful here; I haven’t read his book you’re citing, but St Epiphanius did angrily tear down any depictions of Jesus he found, and today’s Orthodox churches not only swim in depictions of Jesus, they positively kiss them, kneel & speak to them, etc.

    I don’t think any church today fully represents what the saintly Father had imagined.

    However, even if he did advocate venerating the saints, Anglicans only go the other way for prudential reasons and nothing more; because we know what it turned into over the following 1000 years (something he couldn’t have known). So we share his spirit, but we also incorporate the following 1000 years of lived experience, to draw conclusions on practices which he thought were innocuous (and which were, in his own case).
     
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  20. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Well, personally, veneration of Mary wouldn't "incline my heart to worship Jesus" any more than I already do.