Calvinism, the elect

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Aidan, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    Don't JWs talk of an elect , or is it the LDS ?
     
  2. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    I do. I think the Greek compels us to a much fuller understanding it, but the conclusion is the same.
     
  3. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    You're probably thinking JWs but it's not quite the same. 144,000 people will be in heaven with the rest of the saved living on the new earth, according to their eschatology. I don't know where they stand on election for all the rest of the saints, though.
     
  4. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    Scratch that, they do not believe in election of any sort (and I know Mormons do not). They do not even believe God foreknows all things (he could if he wanted to, so they say, but he is selective about it).
     
  5. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS New Member

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    you are applying your "theology" to what the Word of God actually says. It does not work that way!
     
  6. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Did you know the Bible has 73 books, and in some canons more?
     
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  7. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    How so? If I am then you are as much as I am. We hold the same position.
     
  8. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS New Member

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    If I read you correctly, you only take the second use of "αἰώνιος", as "without end", but not for the lost? If this be your position, then we are not the same, as I strongly believe that Jesus uses "αἰώνιος" in both places, with the same meaning, "eternal, without end".
     
  9. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    No. Both mean the same the same thing, I never said that. Never even approximated that. They mean "of the age," following an Aramaic equivalent, and I consider that age, the New Heaven and the New Earth, to be eternal. Hence it follows eternal life and eternal death, corresponding to the age.
     
  10. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS New Member

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    that sounds good
     
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  11. anglican74

    anglican74 Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Don't the Articles of Religion list precisely which books constitute the Revealed Word of God?
     
  12. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Article 6 lists the OT books and the Deutero Canonical texts and then adds
    All the Books of the New Testament, as they are commonly received, we do receive, and account them Canonical​
    So the articles clearly accord the Deutero Canonical texts with a lesser status than the primary canon. Specifically tjis means that the Deutero Canonical texts can not be used to establish that which must be believed ub.nto salvation.
     
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  13. Aidan

    Aidan Well-Known Member

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    Do they not believe that God is omniscient?
     
  14. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    Your response is a popular one, but I disagree with it on a number of points. If it were the biggest lie the devil ever deceived millions with, I think the church's opposition would be more strident and uniform. Yet the early church was overwhelmingly universalist for the first six centuries (the See of Rome was a notable exception), as were many of the early church fathers from Clement of Alexandria to Gregory of Nyssa. None of the Creeds address it. And it wasn't until the 500s, when the Papacy had started asserting its stranglehold on the medieval church, that Particularism came into favor. And it wasn't until the Fifth Ecumenical Council that Universalism, or rather Origenism, which contained a form of Universalism in it, was declared heretical. An unbiased review of Scripture shows that there are passages that lend themselves to either view. On the whole I feel I am well-justified in hoping for the salvation of all people.

    I prayed over how to reply to your post and I came across Romans 5:12-21 as I was reading my bible and I share it here.

    Here is a great example of a passage that I see favoring a Universalist interpretation. If Adam's sin condemned all, then Our Lord's salvation would at least need to apply to the same number and be more complete or of longer duration if it is to be "much more".

    Despite where we fall on this particular issue, I believe the Scriptures testify that whoever is saved by God is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not for our their merits but for His Glory. Judging by your avatar, that is a sentiment we both share.

    ~ Blessings, friend.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  15. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    Apparently, they believe him to only be so selectively.
     
  16. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS New Member

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    I think that I see where you problem lies, which I hope I am wrong. You say "that whoever is saved by God is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not for our their merits but for His Glory". While is is definitely right, it is only part of the "Gospel Message", and what is required for ALL sinners. Jesus' first words as recorded by Mark in his Gospel, are, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel" (1:15). This is the KEY, REPENTANCE is a MUST for ALL sinners. Again, in Luke 13:3, 5, Jesus says, "unless you REPENT you will all likewise perish. And in chapter 24, "and that REPENTANCE for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (47). Peter in his first Gospel Message, said to those Jews who were convicted by it, "“Brothers, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37), to which Peter replies, " “REPENT and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (38). Too many in the church are saying that REPENTANCE, which involves heart-felt sorrow and contrition for personal sins, committed against the Holy God of the Bible, is not a requirement for sinners to be saved. This, my friend, is HERESY, and as its origin in the pit of hell! It is a mockery of God and all that He is and says in His Word. The greater majority of sinners in this world will not REPENT, and without this, they CANNOT enter heaven! The Bible clearly says in passages like Revelation 21:8, "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”. Are you suggesting that God is unfair and wrong in what He demands of His own creation? Read what God says in Acts 17, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he COMMANDS all people everywhere to REPENT" (30). WHY should those described in Job 21:14 want to go to heaven and be with the God they LOATH and DETEST? "They say to God, ‘Depart from us! We do not desire the knowledge of your ways". Why would Jesus have told Judas, who was to commit the WORST sin humanly possible, the BETRAYAL of God, "For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” (Mark 14:21)??? Acts 1:25 tells us that Judas went "to his own place", clearly not where the other 11 Disciples were going!
     
  17. PotterMcKinney

    PotterMcKinney Active Member Typist Anglican

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    I wont speak for Lowly Layman, but what I can say is that I'm fairly certain Universalists do not believe repentance is unnecessary. They read the Scriptures too. As I see it, Universalists believe everyone will repent either in this life or the next, given time. Now, you may disagree with that, but that's up to you. Hopefully you may know better what it is you are disagreeing with and how.
     
  18. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS New Member

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    You say, "Universalists believe everyone will repent either in this life or the next, given time.", but the Holy Bible, the Infallible, Inerrant Word of Almighty God, disagrees with this sentiment. It is not disagreeing with me that is an issue, as my personal "views" are only human. It is what the Word of God says that should concern us more. You speak of sinners repenting after death, based on exactly which Bible text? The Bible says differnet, "And as it is appointed unto men once and for all to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). After death is "Judgement" says the Lord, not a "second chance" for the ungodly, who are God haters, to repent after they are told that hell awaits them if they do not REPENT. This is pure fanciful "theology" that is NOT based on the Unshakable Word of Almighty God.

    By the way, do you believe in the absolute Authority of the Holy Bible on ALL matters, that as the Infallible, Inerrant Word of God to the human race, must be fully trusted and obeyed?
     
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  19. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    The Thirty Nine do not, in my humble opinion, require that view of an Anglican, though they clearly permit it. They require a view that to argue a view for anything to the required to be believed unto salvation it should be able to be proved from Holy Scripture. They specifically exclude the Deuterocanonical texts from the parts of the bible that may be used for that purpose. They require that no part of Scripture be expounded in a manner that is repugnant to another. They also assure us that all things that are necessary unto salvation are within Holy Scripture.

    None of the words Bible, Infallible and Inerrant appear in the Thirty Nine. The words 'word of God' appear seven times.
    1. Article 17 On Predestination the final paragraph where grammatically it saves repeating the words 'Holy Scripture'
    2. Article 19 On the Church in the phrase 'where the pure word of God is preached' in relation to discerning the Church
    3. Article 21 On the Authority of General Councils being limited to the Will of Princes, the leading of the Spirit and Conformity to Scripture.
    4. Article 22 On Purgatory which is seen as invented and grounded up no warrant of scripture.
    5. Article 24 On the language in the liturgy should be understood by the people, in conformity to scripture and the custom of the primitive church.
    6. Article 26 On the Unworthiness on Ministers in relation to the people hearing the Word of God.
    7. Article 34 Of the Traditions of the Church which be not repugnant to the Word of God.
    You have to form an opinion as to the use of the form of the Words 'Word of God' in that it may be a literary device to avoid overusing the words 'Holy Scripture' or is it a theological claim for the nature of Scripture. You have to decide if the Bible is 'inspired' or 'expired'.

    Islam allows no textual analysis and scholarly criticism of the Koran because they take the view that these are the actual words of Allah spoken in Arabic and ultimately only to be read and understood in Arabic. Some take the view that the Bible in like view was the very words of God basically written by God while men simply held the pen.

    Universalism is not without some Biblical basis, however I personally do not feel that it is a view that can or should be required of people unto salvation.
     
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  20. ICHTHUS

    ICHTHUS New Member

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    are you saying that the 66 Books of the Holy Bible, are not "Infallible and Inerrant" in the original autographs?