Bonobos in creation

Discussion in 'Non-Anglican Discussion' started by Religious Fanatic, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. Religious Fanatic

    Religious Fanatic Well-Known Member

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    I want to know what is your view on Bonobos in creation?

    These monkeys, like chimps are often touted as being similar to us. They are known for their promiscuity and are touted by evolutionists as being the key to understanding 'peace'. Their activities are alleged to include homosexuality, pedophilia/incest and paraphilia (using objects to stimulate themselves). They are claimed to do this for fun and not solely reproduction, and are alleged to fight but make up using sex. Evolutionists use them to justify this behavior as part of our history, and even suggest that it explains this behavior in our current species.

    Some things I want to bring up:
    1. Virtually no creationist website addresses the sexuality of bonobos in detail from a Christian viewpoint. This is used by atheists to say that Christians are afraid to acknowledge that God created homosexuality and promiscuity in the animal world, and this is while the Creationist websites claim there is no evidence of homosexuality in the animal world.

    2. Some say this is a result of the fall that animals became confused which is why we see rape and other things, but some reply by saying this benefits the monkeys and not harms them, thus it is not evidence of judgement. However, the snake losing its legs in Genesis did not necessarily kill or endanger the snake but rather was symbolic, so this may not be entirely true.

    Let me know what you think of how we should deal with bonobos from a Christian perspective. Obviously, even the biblical writers knew animals were not monogamous and did not follow the biblical law so therefore this kind of behavior isn't exactly new or shocking to a believer. Also, the bible sometimes uses animals as a symbol, like pigs being used to demonstrate a non-kosher animal that has hooves when describing deceivers even though pigs themselves are not evil inherently. Perhaps it was a judgement that some deviant behavior entered into bonobos. Since these things are destructive to us when we do them, perhaps it's making fun of us, so when we attempt to practice them ourselves and see what it causes, we'll see bonobos and be reminded that we look like monkeys. Just a thought.
     
  2. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Active Member Anglican

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    That seems to hit the nail on the head, from what I understand. The animals have souls/psyche but no spirit, and thus are not capable of virtue - or at least the theological virtues. Appeal to the animals for or against certain human behavior is therefore irrelevant in classical Christian theology; we're just on a different order of being from the rest of the animal kingdom.

    And that's true whether you're an evolutionist, a young earth creationist, or anything in between!
     
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  3. Religious Fanatic

    Religious Fanatic Well-Known Member

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  4. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    What pop culture tells us about bonobos is actually mostly made up. The secularists needed to find some other living creatures who copulated without rhyme or reason like they did. And they decided the bonobos were going to be made to be it. Over the last 20 years an avalanche of pseudo-science has tried to prove that bonobos are promiscuous, homosexual, polyamorous.

    It is true that bonobos are observed to copulate in the zoos every 2-3 hours (often to the shock of passers by), but that's because they've been trained to do so. Every time they perform the 'trick' they come up to humans, either trainers or passers-by, to get a snack. They just want to get a snack. If you look at those poor creatures in the zoos (I won't post pictures), their genitals are severely overworked, far unlike what the bonobos are in nature. This is not their natural state. In the natural state the bonobos do not copulate any more than any other primates or animals.

    The Wikipedia page for these poor creatures is obviously a battleground. When I checked last (a few months ago), there was a lot of academic evidence disproving the pro-copulation narrative, leading to academic articles. It seems to been replaced with the pseudo-science pro-copulation narrative. But even the last Wikipedia editor forgot to remove this anti-copulation narrative fragment from the older Wiki page:

    "the frequency of face-to-face mating observed in zoos and sanctuaries is not reflected in the wild, and thus may be an artifact of captivity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Sociosexual_behaviour
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
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  5. Religious Fanatic

    Religious Fanatic Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Stalwart! Also, I found a review of a book called The Naked Bonobo from 2016, and it is reviewed here by a secular 'skeptic' site who ironically admits that much of bonobo claims in popular culture is fiction:
    https://www.skepticink.com/incredulous/2017/10/09/bonobo-myth-demolished/

    Good to hear a non-believer admit it, even if they are reluctant to acknowledge traditional relationship values in humans as what we should be pursuing, rather than our 'ancestors'. Like I said, there's truth and gold in many of their writings even if not always the whole truth.
     
  6. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it interesting that the secularists strive so hard to justify their sins?
     
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Only the secularists? I have come across many religious people who are consumate perfectors of the art. :laugh:

    Have we not ALL sinned and fall short of the glory that God intends of us, or do some of us think we have been 'fixed' and now run perfectly, like clockwork, on rails. :run:

    Why else do we recite the General Confession every week?
    Why else need absolution?

    I think the reason we find Bonobo's behaviour disturbing is because it is approaching that of the irresponsible members of our own species. Bonobos hold a mirror up to human society and we don't like what we see in it.

    Hence the need for the General Confession every Sunday.

    So Anglicans do it often.

    Bonobos are not advanced enough to do Confession yet, but doubtless they will eventually get there. They will then have to struggle with the further concept of sincerity and how that might affect the affectiveness of confession.
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  8. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, well, on that last sentence you could easily have substituted "Unbelievers" for the word "Bonobos," and it would still be true! :laugh:

    On the subject of confessing one's sins to God, wouldn't you say its purpose is mostly to help the Christian maintain his relationship with God? If we are feeling guilty because of sin we feel ashamed and unworthy, thus we 'hide' from God like Adam and Eve hid themselves in the Garden. And in this condition of feeling unworthy, we are not prepared to receive Eucharist. But it's a matter of how we feel about ourselves and our lack of right standing with God, rather than our actual standing with Him, for I no longer have a righteousness of my own, the kind that is gained by obeying the Law. I now have the righteousness that is given through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is based on faith (Philippians 3:9). How good is this righteousness which God has given to us through faith? 2 Cor. 5:21 tells us, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. To be made right with the righteousness of God Himself, in which no trace of guilt may be found, is a truly awesome and wondrous gift! Our heavenly Father sees us as clean, washed (with the blood of Jesus), and without spot or wrinkle! There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). But we have trouble seeing ourselves as God sees us, so we need the mechanism of 1 John 1:9 to restore us to that sense of being able to approach God with confidence. Agreed?
     
  9. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Sincere confession is the mechanism which enables us to 'get real' with God. It should replace the negative and debilitating emotion of 'guilt', with a positive and enabling emotion of 'gratitude' for God's abundant forgiveness. That feeling of relief should be channelled into positive 'good works'. Good works, not being seen as obligatory and reluctantly performed but enthusiastically and willingly and even cheerfully, 'given back' in thanks to our Lord and benefactor. "God loves a cheerful giver". This attitude is indicative of a healthy spirit.

    "Send us out, in the power of your Spirit, to live and work to your praise and glory". End of!

    I think bonobos are less like 'unbelievers', (who are deliberately contemptuous and opposed to 'belief'), than like 'non-believers', (who are a 'law' unto themselves), their rules not necessarily of ultimate benefit to every individual, but only broadly beneficial to their society. Their behaviour seems to work for them, on the whole, but they are probably missing out on even better ways of living together.

    If they get any more advanced evolutionarily speaking, and catch up with the human race, they may benefit from a bonobo saviour and a bonobo gospel.
    .
     
  10. Religious Fanatic

    Religious Fanatic Well-Known Member

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    You should read this article to see how badly Nature documentaries in general lie in order to impress us:
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nature-documentary-tricks_n_7249528

    They've been doing this since way back when and we are actually being deceived more than we are learning because they simply don't give a crap. If you see something incredible by an animal in one documentary which no one else remembers or still talks about, and then talk to an expert on them who looks equally puzzled, it's likely because the documentary or footage is staged or faked. I saw a documentary years ago that was also mentioned on an internet forum, where a monkey was made to look like it was roasting marshmallows on a stick in the wild, and even was shown in another shot setting a few logs onto the side of a large wooden hut to make it look like it had finished making it, but both of those were staged by the producers. I'm sure the place they were filming it was not even in the wild, but rather in a local park habitat with a trained monkey, which, as the article suggests, is a common tactic used by desperate producers.

    The amount of lies and propaganda on television and the media is becoming more overt each day. Remember, of course, how the bible says the antichrist could deceive even the elect if possible.
     
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  11. mediaque

    mediaque Active Member

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    I used to watch nature documentaries a lot back in the day, not so much anymore. I had no idea a lot of it was staged. Although honestly, it doesn't really surprise me. Deception runs ramped in this day and age.