Baptism by a woman

Discussion in 'Questions?' started by Antony, Sep 29, 2018.

  1. Antony

    Antony New Member

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    Hello everybody,

    I hope I am posting this in the right section.

    I am interested in being baptised; however, my local church is headed by a woman and as far as I can see one must be baptised in one's local church unless there be good reason to be baptised elsewhere. For theological reasons I would like to be baptised by a man. I believe one must go to one's local church and ask for permission or a letter of reference allowing one to be baptised elsewhere. I don't want to hurt this woman's feelings by telling her I don't want to be baptised by her.

    I would greatly appreciate any advice on this matter,

    Antony
     
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  2. Classical Anglican

    Classical Anglican Active Member Anglican

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    Dear Anthony,

    Praise be to God that He has called you to the waters of regeneration. Are you a regular attender at the local church led by a woman?
     
  3. Antony

    Antony New Member

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    Hello Classical Anglican,

    Thank you for your message. I am not a regular attender of the local church. In fact I've never attended a service there. There is another church close by which holds services according to the book of common prayer 1662. It is these services I wish to attend.

    Regards,

    Antony
     
  4. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    __________________________

    Hi Antony. I'm Chris.

    First let me answer the legal question.

    If you want to be baptized according to an Anglican rite you should apply for baptism at your local Anglican parish church - However - if you regularly worship at another Anglican church in another parish, you can be baptized there, if you have been a regular worshiper.

    What frequency of worshiping constitutes 'regular worship' I anticipate you asking. Well that depends nowadays usually on The Vicar and The Parish Church Council or its Standing Committee. What you would need to do is attend the church of your liking and approach the Vicar / Priest, and request to be baptized. He should require you to attend baptism preparation instruction because you are an adult and will be taking vows on your own behalf, which you must properly understand to fulfil your obligations to God with full knowledge of what you have undertaken in terms of discipleship and fealty to Christ as your Lord and Savior.

    The Vicar and PCC will have probably decided on a 'church baptism policy' in which 'regular worship' will be defined and some form of instruction agreed upon.

    You are under no obligation to attend your 'local church' and you can attend whatever church you like, and if a regular worshiper, be baptized there.

    Most adults would probably wait, after baptism and confirmation instruction until the bishop of the diocese visits to baptize and confirm any unbaptized adults at one and the same time as the rest of his confirmation candidates are confirmed. You might prefer to wait until a yearly confirmation ceremony is scheduled. The vicar will know of this well in advance.

    There is of course the possibility that the Bishop's visit will include candidates from the church that your female vicar presides over. A combined confirmation may even be held in her church. However, if you are being baptized and confirmed in another church where you are a regular worshiper and received due instruction, you will almost certainly be baptized by your own vicar and then confirmed by the bishop.

    ______________________________ That is the legal bit, now my personal advice.

    Some questions you may wish to ask yourself:

    Q. Are my theological objections to being baptized by a woman scriptural, and in accord with what I have learned in the gospels and letters, about the character of Jesus Christ and his requirements for discipleship? You need to be satisfied about that before going forward for baptism anywhere.

    [Remember, Jesus Christ did not baptize anyone with water. He baptizes with the Holy Ghost and Fire. Jn.4:2; Matt.3:11; Lk. 3:16; That is the really important thing about baptism, not who pours the water or dunks you.]

    Q. Have I given myself unreservedly to serve Jesus Christ and am I resolved to obey his commandments and adhere to all his teaching?

    Q. Have I knelt privately and prayed the sinners prayer, casting myself entirely upon God's abundant mercy, and placing my faith fully in Christ's atoning sacrifice, not in my own attempts to gain God's approval by effort of my own, but by obediently doing the will of Christ to the best of my ability?

    Q. Have I prayed for God's Holy Spirit to bring me to a full understanding of God's love for me and all of His creation?

    Baptism in water, (whatever method is used), is a symbolic demonstration of obedience to Christ, the death of your old self, and acceptance of new life in Him. A new beginning, following The Way of Jesus Christ.

    Confirmation is a symbolic way of strengthening what already exists within you, when you first heard and responded to the Gospel and decided to follow The Master Jesus Christ. Eph.1:13. Gal.3:2. Expect to learn and experience more about The Holy Spirit in your new walk with Christ.

    Whatever you decide, I wish you well.

    Regards Tiffy.
     
  5. Antony

    Antony New Member

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    Good Evening Chris,

    I appreciate the time you've taken in writing your message.

    I'm slightly confused by this sentence, 'Most adults would probably wait, after baptism and confirmation instruction until the bishop of the diocese visits to baptize and confirm any unbaptized adults at one and the same time as the rest of his confirmation candidates are confirmed.'. Is it not the vicar of the church who baptises as opposed to the bishop of the diocese?

    You may well detect a certain level of naivety in my writing. Having grown up in a wholly irreligious milieu, I lack any real knowledge of church proceedings and, aside from reading the bible - I've spent the last several months doing this for the first time - I've undergone no religious instruction. And yet I've decided that I ought to formally become a christian - if one might phrase it such. Alas, I didn't wish to make this so personal but felt a need to explain myself.

    In answer to the first question for myself, those theological reasons are indeed scriptural. A short research session led me to believe that the bible warns against female vicars. I have an open mind and would be interested to hear arguments to the contrary. If this were not the case it would certainly make things easier for me as I wouldn't have to attend another church for a certain amount in order to be baptised.

    If you have any other advice or guidance, I would appreciate it. As I've already written, I'm ignorant of how these things are done and much of what one might deem basic knowledge.

    Regards,

    Antony

    Edit: one of my chief concerns is that, were I to reach the gates of the celestial city, I might be denied entry because a woman baptised me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  6. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

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    Antony, Tiffy is correct regarding the Bishop carrying out both baptism and confirmation at the same time. In fact, its not so uncommon for adults in the CofE.

    Three or four years ago I was asked to play the organ for a large baptism and confirmation service at a big country church in a tiny rural hamlet nearby. The Bishop decided to hold the service there for some reason. (Probably because it could seat a large number of people - the church was full and it was a very grand affair.) Anyway, some of the adult candidates hadn't already been baptised so they received baptism, confirmation and first communion from the Bishop at that service.
     
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  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    Hi Antony

    This question has been very adequately addressed by Symphorian I think, so I gave it a 'like'.


    What I detected, I think, was a genuine desire to learn more about 'The Way, The Truth and the Life", Jn.14:6. That is the precursor to saving faith, (which I estimate you may well already possess).

    I have read the bible extensively in my 72 year life and have so far never come across any reference whatever specifically to 'female vicars'. I think there are no comments to be found therein about their desirability or effectiveness. :hmm:

    Arguments to the contrary are forbidden by the controllers of this forum, so my lips are sealed, :zipped: (I am currently being tried for heresy HERE ), though it is common knowledge in here that I am married to a female Priest. We ministered together in her three parishes near Crewkerne in Somerset. She was Vicar and I, along with a female Reader formed my wife's Lay Support Team. A similar arrangement to that in many 'house churches' in New Testament times, where the principle believer in the 'house church' was often the 'Lady' of a wealthy Roman aristocrat or dignitary. Then came the persecutions under Nero and others, and that all changed. Then the Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official state religion, and women were promptly 'sidelined' as the priestly class was effectively replaced by male civil servants, gradually becoming less and less knowledgeable of the Greek language of the New Testament and Old Testament Septuagint Bible, and therefore more ignorant of the actual teachings of Christ. Then followed the 'dark ages' when true Christianity was increasingly replaced by religiously bigoted political power structures to the extent that The Reformation became necessary, to get back to true religion. Things have progressed still further since then.

    End of boring partisan Church History lesson. :laugh:

    I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that the woman vicar was presiding in your local church, which you do not regularly attend, and you wish to attend another church less local which better fits your preferences for 1662 BCP style of worship. By all means do so.

    If that is the case then you don't have a problem at all. Just present yourself to the vicar of the church of your choice and ask his opinion on how you can arrange to be baptised there.

    As I explained above, I am forbidden by the operators of this forum to promote or justify women in the Priesthood in the public forums. (It is a very conservative forum). I am able to advise you privately though if you want to initiate a 'private conversation'.

    If you really want to explore the theological justifications for women priests, why not go along to your local church, get to know the woman vicar, explain your reservations, listen to her explanations, (hopefully over an open bible), judge for yourself whether her character is that of a true follower of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and form your own judgment, not by appearances but with true judgment. Jn.7:24 "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.

    You need have no concerns on that account. Your entry permit is on the basis of your own faith in Christ's Atonement for the Sins of the Whole World and your obedience to his final commandment. Not on who dunked you in a bath tub or sprinkled you with wet stuff. :) God is not so 'picky', He wants EVERYBODY to be saved. 2 Pet.3:9. He is not going to let a technicality of that sort deprive you of eternal life. What kind of a God would that be? :confused:
     
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  8. Classical Anglican

    Classical Anglican Active Member Anglican

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    Very good Anthony. In that case, whatever litany of rules the CoE has in the books, the fact is discipline hasn’t been carried out on the clergy for generations. You should find yourself a clergyman that you have a connection with and ask him to baptize you. Do not let the heretical female priestesses have a hand in this beautiful and holy sacrament.

    (Keep in mind that choosing someone to baptize you isn’t about choosing a “virtuous man”, for that would be another kind of heresy. The sacrament is valid regardless of the moral stature of the man. The point is that it should be a man, a clergyman in normal circumstances, but in emergencies can be a layman.)
     
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  9. Classical Anglican

    Classical Anglican Active Member Anglican

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    I am in the southern coast. My wife and I are confirmed Anglicans in the CoE (by a bishop that has not ordained women, and was not concentrated by bishops that ordain women), my preschool children were baptized in the CoE as babies, and I can recommend to you some men who may be able to oblige you if you let me know privately where you are residing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  10. Classical Anglican

    Classical Anglican Active Member Anglican

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    Antony, don’t be swayed by the sympathizers of heresy here on the board that will spin endless webs of degeneracy to justify the defiance of God’s will.
     
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  11. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  12. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I think you should really clarify for yourself what you mean by "a local church". If your local CofE parish is heretical, and some are really starting to be so (no different from Episcopalian parishes here in the US), then you need to ask: is there no other church "local" to you? I can bet there will be a whole handful of churches right next to you, that will be more faithful to the Gospel and to the tradition of the Church, and even to Anglican Identity itself.

    I would also add that there are a number of "flying bishops" instituted within the CofE whose purpose is to directly minister to faithful people like you. You would do well to reach out to the flying bishops, and have them direct you to the faithful CofE parishes they oversee near your area. That should still count as your Local Church.

    Remember, that when a church stops being faithful, it stops being a Church. You should seek to find a local Church; not a local church.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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  14. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    @Classical Anglican:

    (1) The circumstance in which a lay person may baptise is generally restricted to infants, not adults, adults are assumed to have already had sufficient opportunity to have made up their minds and have, in extremis, therefore simply left it too late, (and it does not have to be a man that baptises, because most baptisms in extremis are performed by female midwives, and have been since time immemorial).

    (2) Judging by your comments I suppose you approve of the Apocryphally 'supposed' wisdom of Sirach.You are suggesting that to be baptised by a male pedophile child abuser, deserving of a millstone round his neck and a trip to Davy Jones's locker, is preferable to being baptised by a righteous and faithful woman, one with all others in Christ Jesus.

    Sirach.42:14. Not a nice attitude, thus Sirach never quoted by Christ, and his so called 'wisdom' confined to the Apocrypha and removed from The Holy Bible.

    Sirach.42:14 may be also your considered opinion, but it should not be the opinion of loyal followers of Jesus Christ.
    .
     
  15. Classical Anglican

    Classical Anglican Active Member Anglican

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    As you no longer have the Anglican badge (due to your apparently duplicitous oath to the creeds), I do not consider your views on theology worth engaging with. Further, please don’t advocate for women in ministry on this forum, as that promotes heresy. We wouldn’t want this forum to descend into the decrepit state of madness that is most of the CoE now, of which you bear some responsibility for as a retired clergyman.
     
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  16. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    To me at least, it is not a matter of preference. It is a matter of Holy Orders. Ordination. If someone is not actually ordained (eg. women clergy), it's not that a bad man's actions are "more preferable", but rather the woman's actions are simply inapplicable. Void.

    The man's actions we may judge, and condemn; but the woman's actions in this case simply don't take place in the first place. That's the danger with letting women into holy orders, for they make the sacraments null and void, and contaminate the integrity of the function of the Church; which is something that even the worst serial-killer male priest couldn't do, for he would only bring judgement on himself.
     
  17. Antony

    Antony New Member

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    Thank you everybody for the replies. I greatly appreciate the time and energy you have spent in writing responses.

    I now have a lot of food for thought as the saying goes.
     
  18. Tiffy

    Tiffy Active Member

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    Some people would not know heresy if it jumped up and bit them. :biglaugh: :deadhorse:
     
  19. JoeLaughon

    JoeLaughon Active Member Anglican

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    Tiffy,

    Suggesting that the uprightness of the priest/bishop determines the validity of the sacrament is literally heresy.

    Scripture nor tradition countenance a priestess or bishopess.
     
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  20. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Good Evening,

    Late comer, so forgive me.

    I read the thread. Ignoring the heretics that usually chime in, I do not see where you were asked or said "Why" you wish to be baptized.

    So I will ask, "Why do you wish to be baptized?'

    My further response will depend on how you answer.

    May God bless you.

    Fr. Brown.
     
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