Assyrian Church of the East

Discussion in 'The Commons' started by bwallac2335, Dec 26, 2020.

  1. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to learn about them. Looking for good book recommendations. What does everyone else know about them?
     
  2. Moses

    Moses Member

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    They separated from communion with the Byzantine Church following the council of Ephesus, their service of holy communion (the Liturgy of Addai and Mari) does not and has never contained the words of institution, and they were at one point the largest Christian denomination.

    Muhammed spoke highly of them in the Koran, and claimed they always recognized the truth of Islam once they learned about it. I have seen one Muslim scholar claim this is because their separation of Christ's humanity from his divinity made them more fertile ground for Islam than the Orthodox.
     
  3. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling they also have a different canon to Anglicans.
     
  4. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Without the words of intuition is there communion valid?
     
  5. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    There are several ideas about the lack of the words of institution in Addai and Mari:
    1. The liturgy was not intended as a commemoration of the last supper, but as some other sort of eucharist.
    2. The words of institution appeared in the original form of the liturgy but were deleted at some later date.
    3. The presence of the epiclesis implies the knowledge of the institution narrative without specifically recounting it.

    The first idea is straight forward but I have a few thoughts about the second and third. The second idea seems to me to be forcing a modern idea of what a liturgy should be upon an ancient text. There is also no evidence of some other form of the text. I find it difficult to believe that the original text could have been altered so significantly without some record of the change existing.

    The third idea is the most interesting. This is because the 1662 communion rite is sometimes said to be deficient for lacking the epiclesis. I think in both cases, Addai and Mari and 1662, we are best served to consider what the intention of the rite is. Is the intention to offer the sacrament of bread and wine? There has been a long debate within Anglicanism about when the bread and wine cease to ordinary bread and wine and become consecrated. The presence of the epiclesis in Addai and Mari makes it clear that the intention is to consecrate bread and wine.
     
  6. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Their website: https://www.assyrianchurch.org/home/

    It should also be noted that although they still commemorate Nestorius as one of their great patriarchs their Christology seems to have developed. The Romans and Assyrians were able to issue a joint Christological statement during the papacy of John Paul II. There is also a provision for Chaldean Catholics to receive the eucharist in Assyrian churches and vice versa. In the presence of Chaldeans, it is permissible for Assyrian priests to insert the words of institution into Addai and Mari. The Romans declared the rite to be valid in its original form as well.
     
  7. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I believe that even the Vatican said that the words of intuition were implied within the liturgy itself so it was a valid Eucharist.
     
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  8. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I don't believe they are truly nestorians if they ever were.
     
  9. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    It should be noted that they also have public confession and not a developed private confession of sins.
     
  10. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Well-Known Member Anglican

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    There are several points of minutiae where I'm happy to defer to Rome's often-over-scrupulous approach to things, but this is one I have a hard time taking seriously. Western piety had established pretty confidently that it's the words of Christ (the words of institution) that are the height of the Prayers of the Consecration. Even a cursory glance at Western ceremonial makes it clear that "something big happens" at that point. Although Anglican doctrine isn't so, umm, comprehensive, the words of institution have remained part of the necessary core of the Consecration, as shown by the rubrics of what to say if more bread or wine needs to be consecrated during the administration of Holy Communion.

    If the argument, as you say, is that the the Words of Institution are implied in their liturgy, then perhaps there's an arguable defense there after all. But on the face of it, it's definitely a difficult pill to swallow.
     
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  11. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Also the old Roman Rite did not have and explicit Epicleses.
     
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  12. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Precisely. Exaggerating the epiclesis to an supernatural importance has long been an Anglo-Catholic chestnut. The Assyrians didn’t even have the Words of Institution. Really shows us the ancient theology of the Divine Service, contrasted with the modern one.
     
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  13. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I would have to actually study the text before I could say it is implied or not. I do know that the Catholics allow the Eucharist to be taken there even without the explicit of use of the words of institution.
     
  14. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Here's the anaphora from Addai and Mari. I've annotated it with italic headings and bolded what I think are a few key phrases.
    Offertory
    — The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all, now and at all times and for ever and ever.
    — Amen.
    — Let your hearts be on high.
    — To thee, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Israel, the glorious King.
    — The offering is being offered to God the Lord of all.
    — It is meet and right.
    Proper Preface
    Worthy of praise from every mouth and thanksgiving from every tongue is the adorable and glorious Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who created the world in his grace and its inhabitants in his loving-kindness, and redeemed the sons of men in his mercy, and dealt very graciously with mortals. Thy majesty, o my Lord, a thousand thousand heavenly beings and myriad myriads of Angels adore and the hosts of spiritual beings, the ministers of fire and of spirit, glorifying thy Name with the Cherubim and the holy Seraphim, ceaselessly crying out and glorifying and calling to one another and saying:
    Sanctus
    Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty: the heavens and the earth are full of his glory. Hosanna in the highest! Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who has come and comes in the Name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest!
    Post-Sanctus
    And with these heavenly hosts we give thee thanks, o my Lord, we also thy unworthy, frail, and miserable servants, because thou hast dealt very graciously with us in a way which cannot be repaid, in that thou didst assume our humanity that thou mightest restore us to life by thy divinity, and didst exalt our low estate, and raise up our fallen state, and resurrect our mortality, and forgive our sins, and acquit our sinfulness, and enlighten our understanding, and, our Lord and God, overcome our adversaries, and give victory to the unworthiness of our frail nature in the overflowing mercies of thy grace. And for all thy benefits and graces towards us we offer thee glory and honour and thanksgiving and adoration now and at all times and for ever and ever. Amen.
    Oblation
    Do thou, o my Lord, in thy manifold and ineffable mercies make a good and gracious remembrance for all the upright and just fathers who were pleasing before thee, in the commemoration of the body and blood of thy Christ, which we offer to thee upon the pure and holy altar, as thou hast taught us, and make with us thy tranquillity and thy peace all the days of the age, that all the inhabitants of the world may know thee, that thou alone art God the true Father, and thou didst send our Lord Jesus Christ thy Son and thy Beloved, and he, our Lord and our God, taught us in his lifegiving Gospel all the purity and holiness of the prophets and apostles and martyrs and confessors and bishops and priests and deacons, and of all the children of the holy catholic Church, those who have been signed with the sign of holy Baptism.
    Anamnesis
    And we also, o my Lord, thy unworthy, frail, and miserable servants, who are gathered and stand before thee, and have received by tradition the example which is from thee, rejoicing and glorifying and exalting and commemorating and celebrating this great and awesome mystery of the passion and death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Epiclesis
    And let thy Holy Spirit come, o my Lord, and rest upon this offering of thy servants, and bless it and sanctify it that it may be to us, o my Lord, for the pardon of sins and for the forgiveness of shortcomings, and for the great hope of the resurrection from the dead, and for new life in the kingdom of heaven with all who have been pleasing before thee.
    Doxology
    And for all thy wonderful dispensation which is towards us we give thee thanks and glorify thee without ceasing in thy Church redeemed by the precious blood of thy Christ, with open mouths and unveiled faces offering glory and honour and thanksgiving and adoration to thy living and holy and life-giving Name, now and at all times and for ever and ever. Amen.

    (English translation: A. GELSTON, The Eucharistic Prayer of Addai and Mari)
    Some interesting commentary by a New Zealand Anglican: https://liturgy.co.nz/anaphora-of-adai-and-mari
     
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  15. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    It does appear to be pretty implicit if not out right explicit
     
  16. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Even though I'm not an "epiclesis is necessary!" kind of guy, I think the epiclesis helps bring that Addai & Mari canon together.
     
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