As a Muslim, I can't understand this in John 7:31

Discussion in 'Sacred Scripture' started by bahous, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. bahous

    bahous New Member

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    John 7/31 : " 31 But of the people many believed in him, and said: When the Christ cometh, shall he do
    more miracles, than these which this man doth?"

    words : him , this man reffer to Jesus.

    verb come is in future

    i understand Jesus is not the Messiah but he came only to announce him.

    with your permission i'd like answers
     
  2. Toma

    Toma Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Welcome bahous. It is a good question. The purpose of this verse is shown by the context: its place in the larger story.

    Chapters 6 to 9 of St. John's Gospel deal with the doubts that people have about Jesus. There is lack of belief. This refusal to believe in Jesus comes from all sides: the Pharisees, the Scribes, and all the people. The teachings He gives are too difficult for them to accept. Some refuse Him out of pride, and some refuse Him out of a supposed lack of evidence for His claims.

    In the verse you quoted, the people are showing their ignorance. They are saying "When the Messiah comes, can he do more miracles than this?" even though the Messiah is standing right in front of them. It is showing their ignorance and lack of belief. They were so wrapped up in their idea of the Messiah as a powerful general or miraculous prophet that they could not believe Jesus of Nazareth was that Messiah.

    Remember that not everything that is said in the Bible is a commandment or the truth. For example, when wicked or ignorant men say bad things, they are not to be taken as the Gospel. This passage is a good example. It shows the ignorance of the crowd in order to show the mystery: Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Father, who is revealed only by Jesus Himself.
     
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  3. bahous

    bahous New Member

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    I don't agree with you dear Toma for the reasons below:

    Marc 8/27 : " 27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi. And in the way, he asked his disciples, saying to them: Whom do men say that I am? 28 Who answered him, saying: John the Baptist; but some Elias, and others as one of the prophets.29 Then he saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Peter answering said to him: Thou art the Christ. 30 And he strictly charged them that they should not tell any man of him.


    this verse above shows clearly that Jesus had not taught he was the Messiah. and believer supposed that he was John , or Elijas or one prophet.

    Saint Peter as any Jews , supposed Jesus was the Messiah because of he was descendant of David. but the answer came from jesus:

    And he strictly charged them that they should not tell any man of him.


    i don't hide my conviction is that Jesus came to announce the Messiah
     
  4. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    @bahous, the Christ is the Messiah.
     
  5. Reader

    Reader New Member Anglican

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    Come on that's just wrong. Jesus CHRIST specifically told Peter not to TELL anyone else that He was the Christ. But as we can see in the parallel passage in Matthew, Peter was certainly right in calling Jesus the Christ.

    Matthew 16:13ff

    13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah ; but still others, Jeremiah , or one of the prophets." 15 He said* to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona , because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter , and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ
     
  6. RBrown

    RBrown New Member

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    Does this not have to do with the threefold ministry of Jesus? This was early in his ministry and he was not yet ready to be revealed as the messiah due to all that still needed to be done both to fulfill prophecy and to mentor the disciples.

    Pardon the brevity of my answer. I'm just coming off of a 12 hour shift.
     
  7. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Good Evening,

    When reading Christian Scripture it is best to take it in context and read before the passage and after the passage.

    Prior to this in John 4:25-26, Jesus is talking to the Samaritan woman.

    4/25 "The woman said to Him, 'I know that Messiah is coming (who is call Christ). When He comes, He will tell us all things.
    4/26 Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am He."

    Jesus reveals He is the Messiah, in this passage and many more passages in the Gospels.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    St Peter states in John 6:69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." This comes after the teachings
    of Jesus in which Jesus tells us He is the Son of God, sent by the Father from Heaven.

    Now to passage 7:31. Some believed that Jesus was born in Galilee, hence the confusion as stated in 7:40-43. They did not know Jesus was born in Bethlehem and was of the line of David.

    verse 31 is said by believers to non believers, in a somewhat mocking tone. They are asking the none believers who do not believer the Christ has
    come, when the Christ does come will he do more than this man. They are not rejecting that Jesus is the Messiah, but mocking those who refuse to
    believe.

    As to Jesus at times telling the Apostles not to reveal who He is.

    Mark 5:19. After Jesus had healed the man from the unclean spirits, Jesus to him to go tell his friends what had happened. What God had done through Jesus. In verse 20, the man does. He is the first missionary to spread the Gospel.

    Mark 1:9-11 had the voice of God telling those at the baptism of Jesus that Jesus is His (God's) Son. Verse 11 "You are My beloved Son, in whom
    I am well pleased."

    Read earlier in the Chapter. The people were proclaiming His miracles and speculating on who Jesus is. It was done so loudly it drew the
    attention of the Religious authorities. Jesus knew they would work against Him and try to stop His message. In 8:11 the Pharisees found Him
    and began to dispute with Him seeking to discredit Him.

    Remember after the passage where Peter proclaims Jesus is the Christ, Jesus teaching the Apostles that the religious authorities will eventually
    kill Him and He will rise from the dead.

    Jesus told the Apostles, and at times others, to keep quiet as it was not yet His time to suffer and die.

    Bahous, I would suggest you read all Four Gospels instead of just bits and pieces. Get a good study Bible that defines words, tells what the Church has
    taught for 2000 years, helps with concepts. Also, internet website chat rooms will help you start, but I would suggest finding a good priest to help you understand the Gospel.

    If you read all Four Gospels, the answer to the question you asked would be revealed.

    I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you to the Truth which is Jesus Christ, my and your Messiah.

    Fr. Mark
     
  8. bahous

    bahous New Member

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    Mark 12/35 :" And Jesus answering, said, teaching in the temple: How do the scribes say, that Christ is the son of David?"

    John 1/25 :" 25 And they asked him, and said to him: Why then dost thou baptize, if thou be not Christ, nor Elias, nor the prophet?

    the verse of John demonstrates that Jews were expecting three prophetes:
    1-A voice of one crying in the desert = John
    2-Elias = Jesus
    3-The Messiah = Muhammed (SAWS)


    the verse of Mark 12/35 mentionned above is clear that Jesus was having to correct the jew's beliefs according to Messiah's descendance. according to Jews Messiah is David descendance. but Jesus was insinuating that the Messiah is not from Jews


    all the scriptures in the Bible say that The Messiah is from Ismael and he would come out from Arabia


    This is my conviction

    if you are administrator or moderartor will you permit me to continue or i have to quit. i don't like have been banned.

    i say this because of no christian forum has standed me up
     
  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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    You are free to continue but under the condition of listening and openness to change. As our Rules state, merely repeating your views again and again would not be allowed.
     
  10. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    bahous,

    I understand that English may not be your native language and it is a given that English can be hard to learn and understand.

    With this in mind on to your two new objections.

    Lets start with John 1:25. Again I caution you, to understand the Christian Scriptures you can not pull one verse out of the Bible and form a theology around it. When one does this, they usually end up being wrong. So, I again ask you to read the before and after the passages you quote to understand the verses. Once more, I ask you to read all of the Gospel Accounts if you are truly seeking the truth and understanding of who Jesus claims to be, our Messiah.

    Go and read the beginning of the First Chapter of John. It talks about the Word of God, the Word was with God and the Word is God. John is the one who is sent to bear witness as to who the Word or Light of God is. So John was preaching about the coming Messiah. He was baptizing those who believed. He was doing something only the Messiah, a prophet or priest could do.

    So the priests and Levites came to John as asked if he was the Messiah, John said no. Well then are you Elijah, John said no. Well then are you the Prophet, John said no. Since John claimed to be none of those who could baptize, by what authority. John quoted the prophet, 40:3.

    Verse 1/23 He said, " I am 'The voice of one crying in the wilerness: Make straight the way of the Lord'. John was telling them he is the one the prophet told the Jews who would come to proclaim the coming of the Messiah.

    This passage does not in any way suggest the Jews were waiting on three prophets. The priest were asking John want was his authority. They gave examples of who could do what John was doing. John was the one crying in the wilderness. Jesus was and is not Elijah, remember in Mark 9, Jesus was transfigured and the apostles saw two men standing with him, Moses and Elijah, and they heard the voice of God say in verse 7 "this is My beloved Son, Hear Him!. After that, Jesus tells the Apostles that Elijah has already come as it is written of him. Elijah in the past tense.

    Mohammad can not be the Messiah, he is not the Son of God or the Son of Man. Jesus is the Messiah, He claimed it and claimed to be God as He said in John Chapter 8, vs 58 "Mostly assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to be God.

    Now to Mark 12:35. Why did you not mention verse 36 or 37? Jesus in these two verses completes his teaching in verse 35 by quoting Psalm 110.
    Jesus is telling us that while the Messiah is descended from David, David addresses his son as Lord. This king, Jesus a descendant of David, is uniquely associated with the Lord (or God).

    Psalm 110:1 has God saying to the King to sit at My right hand. "The LORD said to my Lord," when the word lord is all capitalized it is meant for God without writing His name. The word Lord is usually meant for Jesus as the Son. It can be confusing for sometimes it can also be for a secular king and then it is usually not capitalized like in Matthew 20:25 or 1 Peter 5:3.

    Lastly, you are grossly wrong. None of the Scripture even remotely suggest Ismael is worthy of the Messiah. In Genesis Chapter 21 God told Abraham that for in Issac your seed shall be called. God saved Ismael and said for I will make him a great nation. Like Essau, Isaac's son, they contended against the chosen seed of Abraham. By Chapter 37 the Ishmaelties had become slave traders and sold Joseph to Egypt. When Moses and Joshua were taking the Children of Israel to the promised land, they had to fight the descendants of Ismael and Essau who had become worshipers of false gods and practiced human sacrifice. The only thing scripture tells us about Ismael is not good and it is made perfectly clear that Isaac and Jacob from Abraham will father the Davidic kings and the Messiah. Abraham will have physical and spiritual descendants as numerous as the stars or sand. It is also made clear that some of them are outside the convent.

    I still pray the Holy Spirit opens your eyes and heart to the Messiah.

    Fr. Mark
     
  11. bahous

    bahous New Member

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    I accept but without conditions

    i am muslim and i am learned. i have spend 22 years in learning bible.

    i am convinced that Jesus was Elias , he had no message only annoucing the coming of the Messiah who is Muhammed (SAWS)

    the coming of the Messiah is expressed in other manner by the king dom of God. jessus annouced the coming of king dom of God or heaven.
     
  12. bahous

    bahous New Member

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    The Jews were scholars; they were knowing well the scriptures. they were waiting for three. two , The voice crying in the wilderness; and Elias. were the precursor of the coming of the Messiah.

    Jews were basing their expectations on the prophet :

    Esaias 40/1: " 3 The voice of one crying in the desert: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the wilderness the paths of our God"

    Malachie 3/1: " Behold I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament,whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold,he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.

    Malachie 3/ " 5 Behold, I will send you Elias the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers: lest I come, and strike the earth with anathema.

    these two precursors had to prepare the comming of the Messiah.


    Jesus was jew who was speaking to jews like him.
    God in old testament can't : " Deuteronomy 4/15-18 :" 15 Keep therefore your souls carefully. You saw not any similitude in the day that the Lord
    God spoke to you in Horeb from the midst of the re:16 Lest perhaps being deceived you might make you a graven similitude, or image of male
    or female, 17 The similitude of any beasts, that are upon the earth, or of birds, thaty under heaven, 18 Or of creeping things, that move on the
    earth, or of shes, that abide in the waters under"

    the interpretation of the psalm 110 quoted by jesus is : i am not the Messiah. you all know that the Messiah is a king who get power from God. you must realize that i have not any power under the Romains. and you are wrong in saying the Messiah is descendant from David

    "to sit at My right hand" means getting power from God. Jesus had no power ; Muhammed was whom who instituded the king dom of God.



    Behold my servant, I will uphold him: my elect,my soul delighteth in him: I have given my spirit upon him, he shall bring forth judgment to the
    Gentiles.

    to the sea, and all that are therein: ye islands,and ye inhabitants of them. 11 Let the desert and the cities thereof be exalted: Cedar shall dwell in houses: ye inhabitants of Petra, give praise, they shall cry from the top of the mountains. 12 They shall give glory to the Lord, and shall declare his praise in the islands.


    can you say me what's Kedar , Petra ?
     
  13. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Good Evening bahous,

    For some one who claims to have studied our scriptures for 22 years, you are making very basic mistakes in hermeneutics.

    Were the Jews who were questioning Jesus scholars? At times yes and scripture identifies those times. Are scholars always correct? That answer
    is just common sense, no they are not. Scholars can look at evidence and discard it and they will if it does not fit what they are trying to force
    the evidence to say. The scholars did not understand and had taught the Jews incorrectly in many things. Jesus in Matthew 5:38-48 said
    "who have heard, but I tell you". Jesus was correcting false teachings from the scholars.

    Now if you hold the Jewish scholars can not be wrong, I guess you will be converting to the Jewish faith soon.

    Zechariah 9:9King James Version (KJV)
    9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

    The prophet Zechariah predicts the Messiah, the King, God's chosen will enter Jerusalem in this manner. Matthew 21:5, Luke 19:38, Mark 11:7 and John 12:15 all show that Jesus fulfills this passage. Read them, in them Jesus enters Jerusalem in this manner.

    You are repeating Isaiah 40, and yes Malachi 3:1 speaks also of St John the Baptizer.

    Now we agree ST John is the messenger who comes to proclaim the Messiah. What does the messenger say when he sees Jesus?

    John 1:29-35King James Version (KJV)
    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

    32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.




    So our messenger tells you that Jesus is Messiah, the Lamb of God and is the Son of God. Do you reject the words of the messenger of God? The one
    the prophets Zechariah, Malachi and Isaiah tell us is coming from God. Can a Muslim reject the messenger?


    You give the wrong reference for the second Malachi passage. It is 4:5-6.

    Jesus is not the Elijah figure. Jesus in His own words tells us St John the Baptizer is the "Elijah" to come. Read Matthew 11:14, 17:10-15, Mark 9:11-13 and Luke 1:10-20.

    I agree with your reference of Deuteronomy, but as that deals with the worship of false gods and idols it is not germane to the topic. Now if you are saying God never took a visible form, I again ask you to read the scriptures. He appeared to Abraham, Isaiah, Daniel saw him. He appeared as a cloud to the Jews, at the transfiguration. He spoke in a voice heard by humans. Jesus says He is God in the flesh. Again read John Chapter 1.

    Your attempt to interpret Psalms 110 is weak. You place in the verses things Jesus never said or implied. In too many places in Scripture Jesus claimed and revealed Himself to be the Son of God and God in the Flesh. This is why I question your education in hermeneutics. You strain a gnat and swallow a camel.

    You say Jesus tells us He has no power, he is not at the right hand of God the Father. I think I will side with Jesus on this, for in

    Matthew 26:

    62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

    63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

    64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.


    So from the mouth of Jesus you are corrected.

    St Stephen, Deacon and Martyr, testifies Christ and he corrects you.

    Acts 7:54-60King James Version (KJV)
    54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

    55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

    58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

    59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


    Your last sentences do not have references. I think you are trying to quote Genesis 25 and 1 Chronicles 29. The lines of Abraham, Isaac and Ismael.
    If you are you need to re-read them. These passages clearly show that Ismael is rejected by God and Isaac is favored. Kedar is one of the offspring of Ismael and Petra is a city in I believe present day Jourdan. If you are trying to show Ismael did exist, I agree. I have never denied Ismael lived or was
    the illegitimate son of Abraham. I am telling you the scriptures tell us Ismael was rejected by God for the line of the Messiah. Scripture shows us Ismael and his descendants fought against God's chosen since the time of Abraham until today.

    I will continue to pray that God will open you eyes, heart and mind to His Messiah, Jesus Christ.

    Fr. Mark
     
  14. bahous

    bahous New Member

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    don't agree with you.

    I am convinced muslim. i don't like be under any conditions.

    my conviction is Jesus was the Elias and John was the messenger who was sent to prepare the coming of the Messiah.

    the Messiah is Muhammed (SAWS)

    I prefer to leave your site
     
  15. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Good Evening bahous,

    Sorry to see you leave. I do hope the seeds of the Gospel that have been planted will grow into faith in our Messiah.

    I will continue to pray for your salvation.

    Fr. Mark
     
  16. bahous

    bahous New Member

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    sorry

    they don't allow me to continue
     
  17. Phoenix

    Phoenix Moderator Staff Member Anglican

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    @bahous You are free to continue your discussion, without violating the Terms such as in calling the holy scriptures false.
     
  18. Mark

    Mark Well-Known Member Anglican

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    bahous,

    I will not engage further with you via private messages. Let all thing be done in the open and in the light. You have made claims against my faith and
    the faith of those on this forum. You must engage here. If the administrator will not let you post what you did here in the open, it is devious and sinful
    to go behind his back to post it in secret.

    You follow the rules the administrator will let you post. I saw the post the moderate deleted before he deleted it. Sorry, as I said in the private message,
    you do not get to chose which of our scriptures are fake and which are not. To suit your world view.

    You have repeated failed to address my responses from the Synoptic Gospels and from St John's Gospel. All four Gospels tell us the same thing. Jesus is the Son of God, He is the Christ, He is the Messiah. I have shown you the sayings of many of the prophets. Address that. What you are doing is throwing
    out the same objections, just worded differently. Those objections have been answered. You have not given any evidence to back your positions.

    Your positions appear to be in opposition to what the koran teaches. In 34:31, 35:37, 12:111, 6:154-157, 40:69-70, plus many more verses, the koran testifies to the truth of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. You as a Muslim are commanded by the koran to seek out a Jew or Christian if you are confused about the scriptures and faith. The Koran teaches you that the Jews and Christians have the truth.

    As I have said before, as a Muslim you can not deny the Messenger of God, John the Baptizer, nor the Scriptures your Allah tells Mohammad in the Koran He, Allah, gave to the Jews and the Christians.

    I still pray God will open your eyes to the truth and you will be brought to salvation.

    Fr. Mark


    ///////////////////////////////////////////////

    To the Administrator. bahous has sent me a private message. I will not engage him there further. Especially since he wrote what you deleted on the open forum. If he contacts me again via private message, I will notify you immediately.

    Fr. Mark
     
  19. bahous

    bahous New Member

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    Here is what makes the difference in comparing John to the synoptics


    John the writer of the fourth Gospel is only a theologian Paul's church. by writing his gospel to 101, 102, or 103 he proposed to correct the synoptics.
    He wants bridge the gap left by synoptics Gospels about Jesus' messianic .

    he wrote in verse 20/31: " 31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name"

    my simple point of view is if all the believers were unanimous about this title , John would not write this verse.

    and the vesrse below shows that Apostle church didn't recognise Jesus as the Messiah and taxed the Paul's church as antichrist church.

    John 2/22:" Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son"


    First of all ,John, the writer of the fourth book, makes explicit its intention. In his last verse 20/31 he wrote his book to make us believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. And reaffirms his doctrine in the two verses: 1/17; 9/22.

    He puts in the mouth of the disciples Andrew, Philip, Nathaniel, Martha that Jesus is recognized as the Messiah in the respective verses (1/41; 1/45; 1/49; 11/27)

    In John, we see jesus recognize himself as the Messiah in two verses: 4 / 25-26; 10/25).

    And he puts it in the mouth of all the Jewish people in the verse 7/41. this verse is invented in response synoptic who say to Jewish believers: some you are Elijah, for others you John the Baptist, for others you are Jeremiah and finally for some you're an old prophet of Israel .

    And finally puts it in the mouth of John the Baptist Jesus as the Messiah in verse 3/8

    While none of this is found in the Synoptics.


    cordially
     
  20. RBrown

    RBrown New Member

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    Mark 14:61-62King James Version (KJV)
    61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

    62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


    Matthew 16:15-17King James Version (KJV)
    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
     
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