Articles I and II of 1801 Convention

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Fidei Defensor, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.


    How can it say God is without a body when It says He looks like a man, “25 Then there came a voice from above the vault over their heads as they stood with lowered wings.
    26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man.” (Ezekiel 1:25-26),

    And God became a Man, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was with God in the beginning.
    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.” (John 1:1-4)

    “concerning his Son, who was descended from Davidaccording to the flesh
    4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 1:3-4)

    “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity (Godhead)lives in bodily form,” (Colossians 2:9)

    “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
    17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (Colossians 1:16-18)

    “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
    3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
    ” (1 John 4:1-3)

    How can it say without parts, when there are Three Who are One:

    “The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
    2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
    3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.
    4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.
    5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.” “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
    6So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
    7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it.
    8He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
    9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There, in the tent,” he said.
    10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.” Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.
    11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing.
    ” (Genesis 18:1-11)

    “Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” (Genesis 1:26)

    Jesus even sent Holy Spirit,
    “Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
    22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.“ (John 20:21-22)

    “27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
    28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
    30 I and the Father are one.” (John 10:27-30)

    “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26)

    “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.” (John 15:26)

    “Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened. and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." (Luke 3:21-22)

    How can it say God has no passions when He does:

    “The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply trouble.” (Genesis 6:6)

    “Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” (Exodus 34:14)

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

    “When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and troubled.” (John 11:33)

    “Jesus wept.” (John 11:35)

    “Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
    In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.
    15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
    16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!”
    17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” (John 2:14-17) And Jesus is God Imcarnate (John 1:1-3, Colossianz 1:16, Colossians 2:9, 2 Peter 1:1, Titus 2:13).

    II. Of the Word or Son of God, which was made very Man.
    The Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man's nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men

    Accordimg to Scripture Jesus and the Father are One:

    “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30)

    “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
    8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
    9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
    10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
    11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
    12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
    13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” (John 14:6-14)

    “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
    21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
    22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
    23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
    ” (John 17:20-23)

    “Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,” (Colossians 1:15)

    “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.” (Colossians 2:9)

    “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours” (2 Peter 1:1)

    “while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” (Titus 2:13)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  2. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.​

    The Thirty Nine Articles were first published in 1562, though there had been a number of efforts before, in a effort to provide an expression to Anglicanism - The Church of England in which the Bishop of Rome had no authority. In the wake of the rule of Mary, her sister Elizabeth had come to the throne. Cardinal Reginald Pole had died shortly after Mary and he was the son of Margaret Pole Countess of Salisbury and one of the last remaining traces of the Plantagenet House. Elizabeth appointed Matthew Parker Archbishop of Canterbury, and he with others sought to bring a peace to the Church and the Land, providing a framework where every English person could be loyal to Sovereign and to Christ, both those of the old ways and those of a more reformed persuasion. This is sometimes referred to as The Elizabethan Settlement.

    The First Article establishes that we are not a Jesus Cult, but rather an expression of the Church of the Triune God. God is not to be understood as an anthropomorphised expression of the ideal person. Body, Parts and Passions speaks to our physicality, our creatureliness and emotional limitations, and God is clearly beyond that, for God is 'of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness'.

    When Paul Tillich discussed the nature of God, he suggested that 'ontology precedes epistemology', and went on the conclude (clumsily) that God did not exist - in the sense that God was beyond existence and that existence only came to be in God and as a result of God's actions, he was essentially working in the same area, and in a way underlining how well expressed is the first article. I find it amazing that some many Anglicans have a view of God that is something of the nature of 'the old man in the sky' when such and understanding is clearly incompatible with Article 1.

    God is the alpha point of all existence. In this alpa point is profound relationship of one substance, power, and eternity. Notions of Arianism, Nestorianism, Adoptionism and a good many other heresies are immediately removed from the agenda.

    Anglicanism is profoundly orthodox, and though we may speak of God, we know that the full extent of God is ineffable, or beyond our saying.

    II. Of the Word or Son of God, which was made very Man.
    The Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man's nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men​

    In 451 one of the great councils of the Church met at Chalcedon, on the Eastern side of the Bosphorus near Constantinople (Nova Romanum). There had been a significant discussion in the Church about the nature of Christ, and the Arians, the Nestorians, the Pnematomacci, and been discounted and the Nicene Creed established. Issues of Monothelitism, Monophysitism, and others were being discussed. The Chalcedonian definition was established in order to bring this debate to an end. The Alexandrians still struggled with this, and were misunderstood as being Monophysite when in truth they were almost certainly Monothelite, and ultimately the Oriental Orthodox church was splintered. The Copts today in principle would not assent to the Chalcedonian Definition, however most of them would have trouble distinguishing what they believe from what is expressed in the definition.

    Chalcedonian Definition
    Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures un-confusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He were parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.​

    In seems to me that Article II expressed much of the reality of the Chalcedonian definition with significant clarity and economy.

    Hope that helps.
     
  3. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    Isn’t Christiantity by definition a Jesus Cult?:

    “Jesus answered,
    "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through ” (John 14:6)

    6Who, existing in the form of God,
    did not consider equality with God
    something to be grasped,
    7but emptied Himself,
    taking the form of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8And being found in appearance as a man,
    He humbled Himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross.

    9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place

    and gave Him the name above all names,

    10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

    11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,


    to the glory of God the Father.“ (Philippinas 2:6-11)

    The Father’s Will is Jesus be the door of salvation:

    “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day,” (John 6:40)

    “14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
    15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
    18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. ” (John 3:14-18)

    The Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and Son:

    “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26)

    “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me.” (John 15:26)

    “Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you. And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:21-22)

    The Father says of Jesus:

    1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

    3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. 5For to which of the angels did God ever say:

    “You are My Son;

    today I have become Your Father”a ?

    Or again:

    “I will be His Father,

    and He will be My Son”b ?

    6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says:

    “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”c

    7Now about the angels He says:

    “He makes His angels winds,
    His servants flames of fire.”

    8But about the Son He says:

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness
    and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”e

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garmentf they will be changed;
    but You remain the same,
    and Your years will never end.”

    13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:

    “Sit at My right hand
    until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet” ?

    14Are not the angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:1-14)

    15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” (Colossians 1:16-18)

    The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father:


    25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all c ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.30I and the Father are one.”” (John 10:25-30)

    6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will know b my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

    8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

    9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
    10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
    11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
    12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. If you love me, keep my commands.16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you.18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.21Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” (Joh 14:6-21)

    20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
    22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.
    24Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
    25Righteous Father, although the world has not known You, I know You, and they know that You sent Me. 26And I have made Your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love You have for Me may be in them, and I in them.”
    ” (John 17:22-23)

    “For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.” (Colossians 2:9)

    If you see Jesus you’ve seen the Father and Holy Spirit (John 10:30, John 14:9-11, and John 17:20-23) for they are One.

    In short, One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity.
     
  4. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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  5. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    Christian literally means “partisan of Christ.” And as I have listed in my long Scriptural response Jesus is the door of salvation abd only way to the Father (John 14:6, John 3:14-18, John 6:40), is One with Father (John 10:30, John 17:20-23), and Jesus haz been elsvated to the highest place (Philipoians 2:6-12, Hebrews 1:1-14) which elevates the Father who is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father (John 14:9-10, John 17:20-23, Genesis 1:26, Genesis 18:1-11) and the Holy Spirit is in both and they in Him (John 14:26, John 15:26, John 20:20-23, Matthew 1:4, Genesis 1:1-27). One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity.
     
  6. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Acts 11:25-26
    Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for an entire year they associated with the church and taught a great many people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called ‘Christians’.​

    Χριστιανούς is a greek composite suggesting 'little Christ' or 'affection for Christ'. I have zero problem with the verses you quote, and in some way I don't see what it is you are saying.

    Jesus is the word made flesh. He already was from already, before the beginning of time, from before the cosmos, from before the words rang out 'Let there be light'. Through the active cooperation with Mary in God's plan, the word became flesh, which is the fundamental truth we acknowledge her in the title Theotokos. The word became flesh and tabernacled in our midst.

    We are called to be 'like Christ', and whilst we regularly fail in this, it is our calling.

    In the Apostolic period the word Trinity does not seem to have been used, however something of the concept was being developed, and in the post Apostolic period, as the Church reflected on the nature of God, whose message they proclaimed, and whose Son they understood to be the Salvation of all of humankind, the term fell into usage. Quickly it became apparent that Baptism was to be in the threefold name. By the time we entered the conciliar period of the Church, it became a core part of the expression of the faith, as perhaps most clearly seen in the words of the Creed of the First Council of Constantinople.

    There is no debate about the mutual indwelling of the 'persona' we understand in the Holy Trinity, however right belief suggests that we should neither divide the substance nor confound the persons.

    The click bait that drew me into this was your challenging Article 1 where it says 'without body parts or passions'.

    John 4:24
    God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.’ ​
     
  7. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    Christ is centric, we can see the whole Godhead (Trinity) through Him and by His blood:

    “No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known.” (John 1:18, TNJB)

    “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

    “Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?” (John 14:9)

    “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.” (John 16:23)

    “And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” (John 14:13)

    “For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;” (Colossians 2:9)

    “For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ..” (Colossians 1:19)
     
  8. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Well-Known Member Anglican

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    You're making some wonderful scriptural defenses of the divinity of Christ, but it looks a bit like you're not grasping Trinitarian theology. Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity, the visible person of three. It is the particular work of the Son that wrought our redemption, but the call of the Father and the work of the Spirit are just as necessary for eternal salvation.

    Are you actually attacking/questioning Article 1, just trolling us, or honestly curious about the theology involved?
     
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  9. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    I am arguing for Trinitarian Theology that in Jesus is the whole Godhead according to Scripture (John 14:6-13, John 16:23, John 17:20-23, John 10:30, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 20:20-23, Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9).

    Calling Jesus the Second Person of Trinity sounds a lot like Origenism. Origen of Alexandria, and Eusebius believed God the Trinity wad a hierarchy: The Father the Greatest, Son Second Greatest, and Holy Spirit third greatest (least greatest). Origen theology was corrected and rebuked at the Council of Nicea (The Early History of the Church, Eusebius, Penguin Publishers).

    The Father said Jesus is now elevated to hughest place (Hebrews 1:1-14, Philipoians 2:4-11), which elvates the Father who is in the Son (John 10:30, John 14:6-13, John 17:20-23) and elevates the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and Son (John 14:25, John 15:26, John 20:20-23).

    As to your comment if I am trolling, no I am wrestling with the wording of these two articles (Article I and Ii) that is less clear than the Sacred Scriptures, The Apostle’s Creed, The Nicene Creed Filoque, Athanasian Creed, and Chalcedonian Creed.
     
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  10. Fr. Brench

    Fr. Brench Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I'm sorry I asked if you were trolling; I'm new here and still getting to know who's who. Plus your great familiarity with Scripture and lack of familiarity with theological terminology was making it hard for me to tell how serious you were being. But I, too, in my non-denom evangelical upbringing, was also taught a lot of Bible and virtually zero theology. It sounds like you're wrestling with a lot of these terms and concepts for the first time (forgive me if I'm still incorrect).

    The language of first/second/third Persons of the Trinity is standard terminology, and has nothing to do with hierarchy or rank. Rather it's an order of revelation and the usual order of doxology. As the Athanasian Creed attests, none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. And honestly, Article 1 is the least controversial doctrinal statement in our entire body of formularies; it's precisely the same language as every other orthodox Christian church since these terms were first officially used at Nicea.

    Article I
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible.

    - - This is standard classical theism, upholding the simplicity, impassibility, and immutability of God. God, in his divine nature, is defined thus. After defining the Unity, the divine nature, then the Article defines the Triunity:

    And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

    - - Only now do we get to the question of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit/Ghost.

    Article II
    The Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man's nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men.
    - - Building from Article I, this is more standard Christian orthodoxy: the second person, God the Son, assumed human nature uniting it perfectly to his particular Person (therefore only the Son is man & God, the Father and Spirit are not human).

    I don't like to clutter forum posts with too much stuff, so I'll offer you this link to where I've explained these Articles of Faith a little bit more: https://leorningcniht.wordpress.com/the-39-articles-of-religion/
    There are also, of course, some excellent books out there which explain the Articles on a much more scholarly level which I, and surely several others here, could recommend.
     
  11. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    I forgive you about the trolling remark.

    My background is Lutheran/Evangelical, and so I base my theology on Scripture which is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16) and given by the Holy Spirit through the writers (2 Peter 1:20-21). I am Sola Scriptura, so anything that does not come from Scripture must be tested to see if its heresy, example people drinking animal blood in a ritual, or if it is grey and ok: the Stations of the cross, with Jesus falling with His cross many times, although the gospels only record Jesus falling once, but the inference is there that He fell many times and that is why Simon Cyrene was called to help Christ carry the cross to Golgotha, so the Stations od the Cross can be inferred and are not in contravention to Scripture.

    I am a theologian ans have attended seminary (working on finishing my MA), and I often cite Scriptural Theology (Paramount), Lutheran Theology, Anglo-Catholic Theology (Regeneration), Evangelical Theology, and Eastern Orthodox Theology (limited, I love Eastern concept of sin as “missing the mark” which is closer to the Greek and their emphasis that we are Image of God and sin obscured God’s image shining through us to others, Bruce Shelley, Church History in Plain Language,

    My main issue with Article I was, “everlasting, without body, parts, or passions,” which I deconstructed As not Scriptural in my opening/first post.

    Thank you for clarify that Jesus as the 2nd Person is not rank, but that: “none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal.“ (Athansian Credo). I am not lacking in familiarity with theological terminology. The reason I took issue with when you said Jesus is the 2nd person was that I know Origen and Eusebius’ theology and that they believed the Trinity was hierachal: “Father First and Greatest, Jesus Second Greatest, and Holy Spirit Third.” (The History of the Early Church, Eusebius, Penguin Publishers). Of course Origen ans Eusebius were wrong (ref. Athanasian Creed and Holy Scriptures) and they were rebuffed & cofrected at The Council of Nicea.
     
  12. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    I'll take a stab at Article I. Certainly I understand the argument that God has a body; for Jesus is God, and Jesus is truly God and truly Man. However, just as we say, "the clothes don't make the man," in a somewhat similar way the body doesn't make The God. God is spirit, essentially speaking. He took a human body unto Himself, but He is still essentially spirit. He could take as many human forms to Himself as He desired (I'm speaking theoretically) but in the truest sense He still would be spirit, so it is not invalid for the Article to state it thusly.

    Yes, God can be seen as having "parts" and "passions" in the way you indicate. Yet it is also true that He does not have the kind of "parts" or "passions" that the people who wrote the Article were thinking of & concerned about. God doesn't have body parts other than those of the human nature He took upon Himself, and He does not have... ahem... the urge (passion) to procreate.

    Fidei Defensor, I believe you are thinking like a lawyer (and you might have made a good one, but thankfully you're doing much better things with your life) and finding 'holes in the reasoning' which are technical but not substantive. Not that I'm criticizing. But I think your attention to fine details has led you to sort of 'blow it out of proportion' somewhat. A law professor likely would advise that it might help if you can disengage from 'the letter of the law' and step back to look at the bigger picture and the 'spirit of the law' (so to speak... since we're talking theology, not statutes).

    I hope that is of some help. If not, just ignore my blathering. ;)
     
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  13. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    The danger with attributing body, parts and passions to the divine, is that we run the risk of encapsulating the divine within creation, where what we seek to affirm is that creation is an expression of the divine. This is the same as the problem we have of thinking beyond time when we are encased in time. If we lose grasp of the idea of the ungraspable transcendence of God we ultimately do damage to the incarnation of God, whereby we do encounter God in the Flesh, for eternity and time bump into each other.
     
  14. GJensen

    GJensen New Member

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    Sir or Mam, you are wrestling with the Doctrine of God, and I commend you for it. It is foundational to all that we believe. Furthermore, today, this is a neglected doctrine. Even among the ordained. It is very unfortunate, and this speaks to our time.

    I cannot get into every point made here now, but I want to make some brief comments concerning article one for now.

    You mention that you have a Lutheran/Evangelical background that sees Scripture as the sole source of truth concerning salvation. Historically, Anglicans affirmed the same. On this point, there is no difference. Sola Scriptura was affirmed by Anglicans and Lutherans. See article 6.

    Article one contains the classic, historic, and orthodox Doctrine of God. Much of the same language is used by all reformed traditions, and as far as I know, Catholics affirmed the same or similar. Historically, these are points that most believers have agreed upon.

    With your Lutheran background, you should know that the Lutherans used much of the same language that you are concerned with in the first article of their Augsburg confession.
    " . . . He is eternal, has no body, has no parts . . . etc."

    In the 39 articles concerning the phrase that you seem to take the most issue with . . .

    "without body , parts" - Deuteronomy 4.15, John 4.24, Luke 24.39, Acts 17.28

    God is a Spirit that is not limited by time and space, infinite in being. He is not a composition. He is simple and everywhere present.

    " . . . passions . . ." - Acts 14.15, James 1.17, Malachi 3.6

    This is the point that gives most people grief when they are trying to understand this precise language. This term speaks to His immutability.