Anglo-Catholic Churches?

Discussion in 'Questions?' started by SarumPilgrim, Jul 19, 2021.

  1. SarumPilgrim

    SarumPilgrim New Member

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    Hello Anglicans:

    I am an Orthodox Christian (formerly ACNA low-church Anglican) who has grown tired of Eastern polemics against the West and most recently was considering converting to traditional Pre-Vatican II Catholicism until the recent Motu Proprio issued by Pope Francis.

    My question is this, is there any form of Anglo-Catholicism that does not include the the 39 Articles of Religion, Women's ordination, same-sex blessings, and is essentially Old English Catholicism without communion with Rome?

    Bonus items would be the inclusion of monasticism, the availability of Sarum Mass, and a strong Primate with the authority to call local Councils.

    Side note: Western Rite Orthodoxy is too Byzantinized and Russified for my soul. So right now that is very low on my list of viable options.

    Pax.
     
  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    There are exactly what you are looking for in the ACNA just depends on the jurisdiction and Diocese. You should look at the REC, ACC, APA, and OAC. @Shane R for more info
     
  3. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Old English Catholicism is the Reformation Church of England though.

    If you mean medieval English Catholicism, that's a bit of an alteration of English piety, but you can find a few medievalist strands here and there. Mostly among the Continuing Churches, although they are struggling with attracting numbers of people. But @Shane R is a great guy and can tell you more about them.


    The ACNA is constitutionally bound to the 39 articles (thanks be to God). The REC has the 39 articles in their canons, and I believe the APA does as well (the APA is a continuing church but has some remnants of classical Anglicanism). The ACC and the OAC, yeah these are your medievalist strands that I talked about.
     
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  4. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    No, I do not believe there is. If I understand you correctly you are looking for an Anglican church with all these things. I do not think one exists.

    As I was typing my previous sentence I recall one that may fit your requirements. I'm afraid I won't name it. However, you do know one exists. I won't name it because I'm a firm believer in the Anglican Communion and do not do anything to promote those churches who generally refer to themselves as the Anglican Continuum.

    Frankly, how bad is the anti-Western rhetoric in the Eastern Orthodox churches? I'm wondering if what you experience is because you are in the USA. Eastern Orthodox churches in the West may feel less secure than those in the parts of the world from which they originate. It leads me to wonder what would be experienced in places such as Greece or Romania.
     
  5. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    @ PDL just out of curiosity why don't you like the continuum
     
  6. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I don't dislike it and I have nothing against it, and most certainly nothing against anybody who is a member of it.

    I simply believe we should remain within the recognised Anglican Communion and its structures. It may be because I have always believed that we should try to change an organisation from within rather than simply walk away from it.

    You do not give your location but as you do say your religion is ACNA I would infer you are in the USA or, at least, in North America. I do not know how bad the TEC is although I do hear horror stories. Perhaps the provision the C of E makes for those of us who cannot in good conscience accept women's ordination is enough to keep me in the C of E.

    If I left I do not think there is much provision from the continuum on this island.
     
  7. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    TEC is a huge mess. I can't figure out what they believe and what they hold dear. They just change with the culture.
     
  8. SarumPilgrim

    SarumPilgrim New Member

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    Thank you, that is less than fully helpful. :hmm:

    There are at least two types of anti-Western rhetoric that afflict the Eastern Orthodox: 1.) Convert Orthodox in the U.S.A who have developed a keen self-hatred of their own heritage both culturally and spiritually. Once they "doxxed" it's like all common sense and love of their former traditions was jettisoned into a form of loathing and obsession. Also, their many of the priests in the U.S. are of this "neo-traditionalism" that may or not be an actual living expression of Holy Tradition but their own protestantized vision of Orthodox tradition. 2.) Latent anti-Westernism in both "traditional" theology and especially in recent teachings and lives of Saints. Now some of this would be fine and even understandable as they seek to undo the forced Latinizations of the past and to recover their authentic Eastern heritage. However, when you realize how deep the fixation on: If Rome says "A" we automatically change our beliefs to say "Z", even if we agreed previously, you realize that perhaps the lady doth protest too much. Also, the inherent suspicion of Western Rite Orthodoxy and its forced Byzantinizations and Russifications as a ploy to ensnare the Orthodox Church into union with the Catholic and Anglican churches is laughable--if this sad view weren't so pervasive.

    Side note: I have a Romanian Orthodox friend who says that American Orthodoxy is so tainted by Puritanism that it becomes a religion of hands around the neck that chokes the life out of its adherents. Orthodoxy in Romania and Russia is not like this. Orthodoxy is life in those countries--it gives life and allows one to breathe, according to her. Although I will say that while the average layman in the old world just lives his faith and doesn't give much thought to the West, the traditional clergy and hierarchs seem to maintain a very antagonistic approach to the West, while of course the progressives and modernists seek to eliminate all boundaries between religions in line with the current globalist elite vision of One World Religion. No moderated, balanced, middle path I say!
     
  9. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to hear your description of the 'medievalist strand'. That's not a label I would apply to the OAC but I don't use that term.
     
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  10. Silvan

    Silvan Active Member

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    I had to look up what a Sarum Mass is:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_Sarum
     
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  11. Spiritus

    Spiritus Member

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    I believe the HCCAR (Holy Catholic Church Anglican Right) would meet all of your listed preferences and may meet your first two bonus items.
     
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  12. Invictus

    Invictus Active Member

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    Unfortunately, what you have described has been an all too common experience.
     
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  13. Invictus

    Invictus Active Member

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    Very well said. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
     
  14. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Looking to a medieval piety as peak piety. Medieval liturgy formations, the Rosary. The Missal. Marian prayers. A medieval and a Roman interpretation of history (the Reformation as “new” and “bad”). A medieval and Roman interpretation of the Prayerbook. Basically a Percy Dearmer fantasy, an alternative reality where medievalism is peak Christianity and anything that departs from that departs from Christianity itself.
     
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  15. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    That is not the prevailing culture of the Orthodox Anglican Church. Most of our parishes are more akin to 'Old High Church' or Laudian sensibilities. There is more breadth these days than we are usually given credit for though.
     
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  16. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I want to believe it. Maybe I just saw a bunch of bad apples when I was looking at the OAC. Are you guys very different from the diocese of Ft Worth in ACNA, and what’s stopping you from being in the ACNA along with them? Is it that you were here first kind of thing?
     
  17. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    There are several things that happen when the Orthodox Anglican Church is discussed. The biggest problem is people still think the church is a mirror image of the body that +James Parker Dees formed. +Dees was a low churchman and an advocate for segregation (not shocking for a North Carolina man in the 1960s). There are people who assume we are still low and don't want blacks.

    The Orthodox Anglican Church has gone through two major culture shifts. The first occured at the end of the 1990s when Archbishop Robert Godfrey moved the church closer in liturgical practice to the Affirmation of St. Louis churches. This led to a schism in which the uber-low folks left and formed their own group currently known as the Anglican Orthodox Church. Their Presiding bishop is Jerry Ogles and their main area of concentration is around Mobile Bay, Alabama.

    The second was a result of the end of the tenure of Archbishop Scott McLaughlin, who entered retirement in 2011. His retirement was not altogether voluntary, if you catch my drift. A significant exodus took place after his departure, perhaps 40% of the American churches. It took 5-6 years to stabilize after that. The church is now in a growth phase, which leads to your question.

    The OAC has always been a 28 BCP church. The OAC has also taken a strong stand on women's ordination, so much so that a Kenyan affiliate was expelled for implementing the practice unilaterally. We have become a bit of a haven for ACNA folks who are sick of the waffling on Holy Orders and the often abysmal liturgy. We maintain a close relationship with APA and I would hazard to say that we have a unified voice in our reasons for remaining out of the ACNA fold.
     
  18. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I take that to mean old traditional Anglicanism
     
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