Anglicanism and Lutheranism

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Traditionalist, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. Traditionalist

    Traditionalist New Member

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    Why should I choose being Anglican over being a Confessional Lutheran? After all they are more doctrinally unified i.e. The Book of Concord. Another question is that why Anglicanism is so doctrinally broad? For example, Anglo-Catholics versus Reformed Anglicans.
     
  2. Peteprint

    Peteprint Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I could not be Lutheran (though I do respect them) due to their theology, which is monergistic. I am a synergist, and I believe in conditional election (as do Arminians, most Roman Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox).

    Aside from this, Lutheran soteriological theology is not logical or consistent, something which their theologians often admit is the case.: "Calvinism and Arminianism, two logically consistent, but un-Biblical systems (in their opinion), and Lutheranism, the logically inconsistent yet Biblical system.

    This blog posting covers the subject fairly well:

    http://threehierarchies.blogspot.com/2005/08/lutheranism-between-calvinism-and.html

    When confronted with the fact that their system is not logical (while Calvinists and Arminians believe that their systems are), Lutherans will say something to the effect, "it may not be logical, but it is what Scripture teaches."

    Again, it is my rejection of monergism that would prevent me from becoming Lutheran (or Calvinist).

    Lutheranism occupies what is, in essence, a half-way house between Calvinism and Arminianism. I have a lot of respect for Lutherans I know; I just can't accept their theology on many issues.

    The reason that Anglicanism is so broad theologically is, in my opinion, due to the fact that the desire for a national church in England resulted in it being as accommodating as possible to different persons. No single party was allowed to take over the Church of England completely and compromise was the usual way of dealing with differences. Only those who were insistent about certain issues eventually left, either going to Rome, or joining another sect such as the Puritans, Methodists, etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
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  3. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    They are more unified, but they're unified around a core of ideas which contains at least two essential, fundamental mistakes which have prevented them from having the fullness of the Church.

    1. Liturgy: they don't have a liturgy (not any longer). They used to have one unified liturgy during the 16th century, the German Mass of Martin Luther and the great Lutheran doctors. However because of a key error in theology, they have let the liturgy be dictated by the princes, and over time you resulted in a hundred different liturgies over the course of 17th and 18th centuries. Lutherans living in the 19th and 20th centuries have come to believe that there isn't a one liturgy, and there doesn't NEED to be a one liturgy.

    2. Episcopacy: they don't have one any longer (except for a few places).


    So you're talking about a "theologically unified" people whose churchmanship is run by guys in secular suits with weird titles like "president"; and with a haphazard worship that doesn't have to be a liturgy.


    Disobedience. Both camps of that divide stray from the doctrine as laid out in the Anglican tradition.

    Anglican doctrine is extremely clear and precise on whatever question may be asked: the sacraments, marriage, divorce, abortion, contraception, bishops, episcopacy, priesthood, the liturgy, Scripture, tradition, sanctification, justification, election, reprobation, baptism, regeneration, communion, real presence, and even on the accessory issues like architecture, and sacred music.
     
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  4. Fidei Defensor

    Fidei Defensor Active Member

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    Lutherans greatest gifts are the Solas:

    Sola Gratia: Saved by Grace Alone (Acts 15:11)
    Sola Fide: Through Faith Alone (Phil 2:9)
    Solus Christus: In Christ Alone (Acts 4:10-12)
    Sola Scriptura: According to Scripture Alone (2 Timothy 3:16)
    Soli del Gloria: Glory Be to God Alone

    Their emphasis that Jesus saves you and only faith in Him and His grace is sufficent for justification is Scriptural (Eph 2:5-9, John 3:16-18, John 6:40, John 17:3, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 4:10-12, Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:9-10, Galatians 2:21, Galatians 5:4).

    Martin Luther’s Small Catechism is useful for teaching youth.

    Luther’s teaching on images: should we have crosses, crucifixes, and images of holy persons? is very balanced; he suggests its up to each individual’s conscience on whither they should have images, and that no one should forbid images. (The 95 Theses and Other Writings, Eight Sermons in Lent, Martin Luther, Penguin Classics)

    The major problem after the Solas and Small Catechism, is that Martin Luther varied in his teaching over his life time drastically, so that pinpointing what to keep or spit out is difficult; for instance there is Roman Catholic Luther who only protests indulgences, Luther who discovers the love of God, Augsburg Luther, Luther who defies the Papacy and burns the Papal Bull and calls the Pope Antichrist, Luther the Husband, Luther the Antisemite, and Luther who is disillusioned and wished he had reformed the RCC from within. Choosing and picking Luther’s teachings is tough, because much of what he writes earlier, in between, and later can be at variance with each other.

    We should thank Luther for starting The Reformation on Oct 31, 1517. His grievances helped the English Reforms to come to pass as well, even if indirectly.
     
  5. Leacock

    Leacock New Member

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    I am sorry but I have to laugh when seeing Lutherans being criticized for not having a unified liturgy and letting things be dictated by princes.... that said, my general stance is that if it is not the 1662 it is not legitimate. Though I think I have attended two 1662 services in my life (could not find any when I was in England sadly).

    I strongly agree with you about episcopacy, that actually seems to me to represent a lack of doctrinal unity amongst Lutherans because of course many of them do have bishops but then others don't. And speaking to a Lutheran clergyman once I found the only reason that his church did not have bishops was because the bishop they had brought with them was in a sex scandal and I guess they did not want to ship another one across the ocean? That really does not seem to represent doctrinal unity.
     
  6. BibleHoarder

    BibleHoarder Active Member

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    Lutheranism has no reason to be preferred over Anglicanism doctrinally. Anglicanism has only one specific view on salvation and that is that justification is through faith, but whether or not it is the Catholic, Calvinist, or Lutheran view is up for discussion and personal conscience. If Lutheranism's view of salvation (that we can turn away) and Presbytarianism's Calvinist predestination are at odds, then they would not consider each other brothers in the Lord, yet we constantly see them in communion and Lutheran doctrine takes a specific view of that in their teachings. Anglicanism is neutral about everything the other denominations are specific about that generally isn't required for one's salvation, supposedly. Therefore, it is much more flexible.
     
  7. Jeffg

    Jeffg Member

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    Even with these differances, its interesting how North American Lutherans and variouse Episcopal/Anglicans share things. There is at least one church in my area that has clergy and affiliation with both TEC and ELCA. Further, TEC and ELCA are in "Communion" together. I also seem to remember one of the Continuing Anglican Churchs being in some sort of talk with the LCMS. Also, I seem to remember reading something that the Anglican Church of Canada and the ELCA equivelant in Canada have some sort of Communion together, as well as Augsburg Fortress (Canada) doing the publishing for the Anglican Church of Canada.
     
  8. JoeLaughon

    JoeLaughon Active Member Anglican

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    I wish Protestants had come to an accord with a unified doctrine on the Eucharist. The inability for the Reformed/Lutheran churches to come to this accord is the cause of much strife.
     
  9. Jeffg

    Jeffg Member

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    I think a lot of the problems deal with if it's a Sacrament or not. I've seen church's evangelical/non-denominational churchs I believe come from a Reformed/Calvinistic perspective refer to the Eucherist as an "Ordinance"... of course these are the same people who don't undersand the theolgy around baptism and re-baptize people when they join said" evangelical/non-denomtional mega church of the popular pastor of the day". Even among Lutheran and Reformed laity I think there is a lack of understanding sometime. I was a long time Lutheran , but one of the reasons I moved away was when the ELCA and a couple of Reformed/Presbyterian church's entered into "full communion" and clergy exchange, etc. Luther and Calvin definatly disagreed on the Eucherist, and there is a differance between Calvinist theology around the Eucherist and Lutheran theology around the Eucherist. My frustration was how could two churchs with differant theology on the Eucherist be in "Communion".
     
  10. JoeLaughon

    JoeLaughon Active Member Anglican

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    I think it's a bit of a mistake to confuse the Calvinist position for the Zwinglian position, which regrettably has become common in Reformed circles.
     
  11. Jeffg

    Jeffg Member

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    Since Calvinism was involved, it was probably "Predestined" to happen.
     
  12. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It's not the doctrine of regal power I point out as the flaw, but the rejection of the concept of a unified liturgy. One church, one faith, one baptism: that view is hard to hold among Lutheran churches who although feeling some sort of comfort from sharing some common doctrines, nevertheless suffer from the fact that what they agree on is invisible, abstract and inchoate. In visible things, their 'orthodox brother' might worship completely differently from them, even shock and repel them. Thus in practice they may feel utterly alone, or drawn to other denominations which might worship the same way. Worship matters, and the amount of unity in worship is of inestimable importance.

    So for example in America in the 18th century, when the Episcopal Church formed out of the colonies, they declared a single Prayer Book, and all subscribed themselves to one single set of rites and liturgies, even without regal power to force them. They have been formed by centuries of behavior inherited from the Church of England. That was the great gift Queen Elizabeth's unification had, in teaching Anglicans for centuries that we must be united as one.

    And yeah we all must return to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
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  13. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    lol
     

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