Anglicanism and Liberalism

Discussion in 'Theology and Doctrine' started by Invictus, May 17, 2023.

  1. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    Acts 1:18-20
    (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. This became known to all the residents of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) ‘For it is written in the book of Psalms,
    “Let his homestead become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it”;
    “Let another take his position of overseer.”

    Matthew 27:3-8
    When Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. He said, ‘I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.’ But they said, ‘What is that to us? See to it yourself.’ Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, ‘It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.’ After conferring together, they used them to buy the potter’s field as a place to bury foreigners. For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
    I agree with @Invictus as there are some significant variances, yet some sense of historicity is found in the common elements in which they agree:
    • The Field of Blood
    • Judas as Betrayer
    Matthew however implies a sense of remorse to Judas which is not apparent in Luke's account, and Luke has Judas buy the field whereas Matthew places this firmly in the hands of the Priests. Both accounts come as part of the accounts that gave birth to the community of faith in the earliest of days and their commonality and variances attest to the overall veracity, without the minutia.

    When a child in my scripture class told me that Judas stabbed Jesus in the back, he was both wrong and right at the same time.
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  2. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    • the Field of Blood was bought with the money paid to Judas
    • Judas died soon after the crucifixion
    There are however significant differences as well, such that attempts to reconcile them are strained and unconvincing. However no point of theology hangs on this story.
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  3. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    United States
    Just in case there's any doubt, here are the three main Western creeds:

    The Apostles' Creed

    I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth;
    I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
    He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
    and born of the Virgin Mary.
    He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried.
    He descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again.
    He ascended into heaven,
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. Amen.

    The Nicene Creed

    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    Quicunque Vult

    commonly called

    The Creed of Saint Athanasius

    Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
    Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish
    And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,
    neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
    For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
    But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory
    equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
    Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
    The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
    The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost
    The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
    And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
    As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and
    one incomprehensible.
    So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
    And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

    So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
    And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
    And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
    For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by
    himself to be both God and Lord,
    So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
    The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
    The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
    The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten,
    but proceeding.
    So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three
    Holy Ghosts.
    And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another;
    But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
    So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be
    He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.

    Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the
    Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of
    God, is God and Man;
    God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance
    of his Mother, born in the world;
    Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his
    Who, although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
    One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh but by taking of the Manhood into God;
    One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.
    For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
    Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
    He ascended into heaven, he sitteth at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from
    whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead.
    At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their
    own works.
    And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into
    everlasting fire.
    This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

    The only mention of "the scriptures" in any of the three traditional creeds is in the Nicene, and there it is in a quotation from 1 Cor. 15, which is undoubtedly referring to what we now call the "Old Testament," although at the time St. Paul wrote, no precise OT canon had yet been determined, nor was there one undisputed "authorized" text of it.

    These creeds ultimately say more or less the same thing: that to be Christian, one must believe:
    1. The unity of God
    2. The trinity of persons in God
    3. The incarnation of the second divine person
  4. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Posts impugning sacred scripture have been removed.
  5. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    One explanation for the death of Judas is that he hanged himself and when he began to rot the body fell and burst open. I find this unconvincing in that Jewish law did not allow a body to hang overnight.
  6. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    καὶ ἐξεχύθη πάντα τὰ σπλάγχνα αὐτοῦ.

    and gushed out the whole bowells from him.​

    The Greek word for bowels - splagchna is not a very pretty sounding word and its use here is indicative of some disgust over the event described.
  7. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Christian attending ACNA
    What if this occurred in an "out of sight" area? It might have taken some days for anyone to come across the body. Just a thought.
  8. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    I still say these statements by Matthew and by Luke, were hearsay and 'common knowledge' stimulated by rumour and gossip. They do not claim to be definitive truth concerning the death of Judas. They simply, honestly record what was currently on the rumour grapevine throughout Jerusalem. It is only by insistance that Peter's statements must be truthful, accurate accounts of the actual circumstances surrounding the death of Judas, that the problem of apparent contradictions in the text of the bible arrises at all. The statements are certainly true, that is what everyone in Jerusalem were saying, but the rumour mongers may not have been right about every detail.
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