Anglican Standard Text or Revised Standard Text

Discussion in 'Faith, Devotion & Formation' started by bwallac2335, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Those are not translations, those are the two rites for Holy Communion in ACNA's BCP2019.

    I suppose I could mention the influence of the book in the Continuum. Most of the clergy (who use the internet anyway) ordered one to see what it was all about. I don't know of any Continuing bishop of a reputable jurisdiction who has authorized those liturgies. I have heard a few reports of those in what my colleague in NC candidly labeled the 'Anglican miscellany' who have permitted use of portions or all of the material. I had to check out of the bulk of the discussion of the book because, as with any discussion of liturgy in the Continuum, certain Neanderthal-like individuals came out in force fast to grunt about the deficiencies of the book. I don't consider a poorly chosen word or an unfortunate rubric here or there to be earth shattering. The fact that it is designed with a 3 year lectionary was enough to get some cranks to declare it heretical. There was a huge uproar over the initial rubrics that prescribed what to do with any left over wine after the Communion such that ACNA actually made a modest change to it for the second printing because even their Anglo-Catholics were bent out of shape.

    My bishop dislikes the baptism service (p. 161). We haven't discussed his objections in depth but I went back and read it in detail to see if I could pick up on whatever it is he might be objecting to. I will say, the page entitled 'Concerning Holy Baptism' (p. 160) which precedes the rite is unfortunate; it does not make any mention of regeneration. The rite itself is unremarkable, except for not including a prayer of exorcism, but I have no objection to that. An exorcism prayer has been absent in BCP revisions for quite some time so it's not like this was an unprecedented change. The application of chrism oil is optional but again that is not anything that hasn't been seen before.
     
  2. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I have not read about what to do with the left over wine. Our priest drinks it all and I thought that is what you were supposed to do? I would say we are middle/low church but moving more high church. If I have another son or daughter, and please all pray that we do and we both do not believe in birth control and would like a lot more, I will insist on the oil being used.
     
  3. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    This thread has gotten me interested in liturgy but I know nothing about it. Any good recommendations to learn on it?
     
  4. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    NOT The Shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix.

    A prayer book commentary is a good start. Everyone has their favorite, it's not terribly important which one you choose. Look on YouTube for a video of an instructed Eucharist. I had scanned one of my parish's bulletins at one point because the organist prints some helpful notes about what is going on through the course of the service in the margins. I'll see if I can figure out where that file is hiding.

    Another interesting book is In the Stead of Christ by Kent A. Heimbigner. It is not his primary purpose to explain the liturgy but the larger portion of the book examines the Canon of the Mass in a number of ancient liturgies. The book is available through Repristination Press but their website is down this morning so I can't give you a direct link.

    I've got a number of older handbooks that were designed as guides for confirmands but I suspect most of them are out of print. Anyhow, you've got a few suggestions to start.
     
  5. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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  6. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Thanks, I guess I'm not familiar enough with the 2019BCP then. So it has has not only two Rites (as was sadly the legacy from the Episcopal Church), but also two different "texts"?


    Yeah that has been my impression as well. It has flaws, and is far from the ideal, which traditionally has been the 1928 and (to me) the 1662. That being said, the 1979 BCP was that damaging; perhaps we do need to go through one generation/edition of the BCP to erase those scar marks, so that when there is an update in 2040 or whatever, it will have a clearer pathway to return to the 1928/1662.


    Agreed. One of the most destructive books in the history of the Church. All of the older churchmen were at least impacted by it; hopefully the newer generations will have never had more than a cursory awareness of it.
     
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  7. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    Are you in the Continum or ACNA? I skimmed through the 28BCP a bit on the way to church yesterday. It seemed longer and there were parts of it I like that are not in the 2019BCP
     
  8. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    ACNA all the way.
     
  9. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    What I am calling a 'rite' is what they have called 'texts.' Perhaps they were trying to avoid the connotations and baggage of Rite I and Rite II from the '79.

    Here's where it gets interesting, there was enough enthusiasm for a Rite I style of book that one is being made. I believe it is finished and at the printers. Our forum member DivineOfficeNerd was instrumental in that effort.

    I find that fascinating. I live in the oldest part of Virginia surrounded by historical Episcopal churches, some of the oldest in the country. None of the surrounding parishes regularly offer a Rite I service. A few dust it off for special days like All Saints or maybe sometime during Holy Week or around Christmas but Rite I has mostly faded into disuse in these parts.
     
  10. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    What does one look for in a good liturgy in your opinions?
     
  11. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I wasn't around when the 1979 BCP was passed, but I wouldn't be surprised if Rite I was used a the trojan horse to get the whole 1979 BCP past the traditionalists (who at that time were still numerous).

    In my mind, the entire 1979 BCP is clouded in poisoned intentions and malicious ideology, and has to be sworn off in its entirety.
     
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  12. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    1. Something the laity can pray with the clergy. I steer clear of liturgies with a lot of secret prayers (that is, prayers which the clergy say in a tone that is inaudible to the congregation).
    2. Biblical content. Some of the modern liturgies have gotten too creative with the prayers of the people and even the ordinary of the Mass. They are filled with esoteric nonsense, words with little to no meaning.
    3. Celebration. Confession and absolution are important but that should not overpower the celebratory Gospel elements of the liturgy.
     
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  13. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    What are some of your favorite liturgies? I would love to see the Sarum Mass done just for historical purposes. Does your church stress private confession?
     
  14. Symphorian

    Symphorian Well-Known Member

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  15. Rexlion

    Rexlion Well-Known Member

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    Bingo! I couldn't agree more with point #3. We gather together to give God glory, praise, and thanks, and to celebrate what He has done for us. Too much attention to our utterly depraved condition is not fitting when we have been redeemed and set apart as God's children, holy and blameless in His sight through the completely efficacious sacrifice of our Lord, Jesus Christ. My rector is very fond of the saying, "There is no health in us," and I respect his viewpoint, however we should not be groveling but rejoicing, because truly there was no health in us, but now by the grace and power of God there is health in us! I'm not saying we should abandon confession and absolution, but we should emphasize the celebratory aspect more. And maybe take out a bit here and there that keeps hammering us over the heads with reminders of our badness; why keep pleading for mercy, as if we haven't been promised and granted mercy?

    Our Prayer of Humble Access is one of the things that I think puts the emphasis in the wrong direction, and right before receiving Eucharist no less. And it got a bit 'worse' direction-wise when we started using the 2019 BCP. Before that, we'd recite, "Apart from your grace, we are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under your table." Now the "apart from your grace" has been left off, so we are simply confessing our unworthiness... at a time when we should be in joy with the prospect of the Eucharist. We have been deemed worthy by grace through Christ! Hallelujah!
     
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  16. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I read the Anglican standard text yesterday. It made the Renewed Ancient Text feel bare in comparison to its richness and grace.
     
  17. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    Divine Service Setting 2 from the Lutheran Service Book (LCMS) was the first liturgy I learned well. I still have a sentimental place in my heart for that service.

    Private confession: I hear most of it because the rector doesn't promote it. He's a very Protestant minded sort of Anglican. He forgets that half of the members are lapsed Roman Catholics, although I suppose most of them are lapsed because they were the sort that didn't take things like confession seriously. The Bishop is a strong proponent of confession, although it is prohibited in our canon law to install the booth in our parishes. The place I most often hear confession is my back porch. The people that want it have a tendency to drop by my house late in the week, make small talk for 4 or 5 minutes, and then ask me if I'll hear their confession. So I grab my stole and book and take them out to the porch.
     
  18. Shane R

    Shane R Well-Known Member

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    As I was thinking about confession a conversation I had at a recent clericus came back to me. (Clericus is twice a year for us and it moves from place to place; it's a meeting of the clergy and is composed of some seminars, lots of common prayer, and lots of common meals.) I was talking to one of the staunchest Anglo-Catholics, the type who describes himself as an English Catholic and uses the Missal exclusively. We were talking about confession and he told me has never heard a confession. That surprised me a bit, he's got a parish where the people are more Roman Catholic than the Pope, say the Rosary and schedule Stations of the Cross and such, but no one is going to confession.
     
  19. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    So how do yall do confession for someone like me? I believe that the confession and absolution in the liturgy is more than sufficient butif I was to confesswould it have to be a lifetime confession or a specific what is on my mind confession?
     
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  20. bwallac2335

    bwallac2335 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I don't see the point of private confession unless it is to quite the conscious. Either the general confession is sufficient or it is not.
     
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