Americans and the 1662 BCP

Discussion in 'Liturgy, and Book of Common Prayer' started by Pecanpie, Jul 20, 2014.

  1. Pecanpie

    Pecanpie New Member

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    Not long ago I discovered by reading blogs that there are some Anglican Americans who love the 1662 prayer book. As individuals of a strong Reformational orientation they are not completely happy with the 1928 prayer book because of an Anglo-Catholic connection.

    For those of you who are American and have a preference for it, how do you interact with the references to the Monarch in areas such as the Morning and Evening prayers, the Catechism, and the Articles? Do you replace words or have a page from the 1928 book somewhere? Are you a royalist and pray for the Queen and the Royal Family?
     
  2. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    i read the 1789 BCP, The first American BCP, which follows closely the 1662 minus the prayers fir the royals.
     
  3. Elizabethan Churchman

    Elizabethan Churchman Active Member

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    Personally, I'm a Royalist and I use it as it is written when I can. Otherwise, it is rather easy to simply substitute the references to the monarchy with a simple "God save the state" and, if you want to be more detailed, mention the President, Speaker of the House, and the governor of whatever state you're in instead of the Royals.

    However, in my experience, the Anglo-Catholic elements of the American 1928 are rather exaggerated. It's more accommodating of those views than the 1662, but not entirely unusable as a convinced Protestant.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
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  4. The Hackney Hub

    The Hackney Hub Well-Known Member

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    I'm a Loyalist and say the prayers for the Queen.
     
  5. Pecanpie

    Pecanpie New Member

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    So far a royalist and a loyalist. I'm a royalist myself and say the prayers whenever I use the 1662 prayer book in my personal devotions.

    I assume American users of this particular version mostly if not entirely have a strong Reformational or Protestant orientation. What about those of you who use the 1789?
     
  6. Elizabethan Churchman

    Elizabethan Churchman Active Member

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    Well, wouldn't a Royalist be a Loyalist too? I suppose you could be a Loyalist without being a Royalist (I guess you would support some kind of Imperial British Republic), but I can't imagine being a Royalist and not a Loyalist. That might be a problem with my imagination, however.

    There is actually a congregation in neighboring Maryland that appeared to have a very Anglo-Catholic orientation that I ran across looking for 1662 congregations in the US (to see if there actually were any). Never visited them, so I can't say for sure, however.
     
  7. The Hackney Hub

    The Hackney Hub Well-Known Member

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    I might be mistaken but I thought the term "royalist" somewhat implied monarchism, whereas "loyalist" is always associated with the idea that Queen Elizabeth II is the rightful authority in North America.
     
  8. Lowly Layman

    Lowly Layman Well-Known Member

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    You really believe that?

    Being an episcopalian and a loyalist would be difficult for me to square, given the PECUSA affirmatively rejected monarchy's supremacy over the American Church and, by implication, over America itself in 1789.
     
  9. Elizabethan Churchman

    Elizabethan Churchman Active Member

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    Royalism is the support for a specific royal house. In the case of the United States, it would be support for the House of Windsor or the Jacobites, since they are the two houses that have held a throne over what is now the United States. Both of those would be Loyalist to some degree.

    It would be less difficult to square than other denominations. I think the American Church's statements on it were rather milquetoast. The most you can say they affirmed for certain was that the Monarchy had no practical authority over the United States.
     
  10. Rev2104

    Rev2104 Active Member

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    Wait there still Royalist in america. This kinda blows my mind. I never knew.
     
  11. Pecanpie

    Pecanpie New Member

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    To Hackney Hub and Elizabethan Churchman:

    I am unaware if the terms Royalist and Loyalist mean more particular things in the monarchist circles. The only meanings I attach to them are those found in the dictionaries and encyclopedias. I am a constitutional monarchist which means I have the position that the head of state should be a ceremonial figurehead who represents the state regardless of the political views of its citizens, and this figurehead is subject to law. I am a Royalist because not only do I support [constitutional] monarchy I especially support the British monarchy and think the monarch should be my country's head of state (or for just a federation of individual states here). I am not a Loyalist because I am not legally a loyal subject to the monarch in the face of revolt. Let me know if this makes sense.

    To Rev2104:

    I think there have been American Royalists ever since British people have been on this land. I have the feeling Royalism is passed down from parents to children in some families, but it is apparent that an individual in a republican family might look into monarchism and in the end become convinced that it is better than republicanism. As for me I am someone who came to it on my own. I have no idea how many Royalists there are here in the US and I wonder how many people would become Royalists if they found out such a position exists. Constitutional monarchism (or any other kind) may not be something even half of Americans are inclined to, but I do think many would be in favor of a parliamentary system of government, after all it is disappointing that a man can remain head of government even if he continues doing a lousy job.
     
  12. Elizabethan Churchman

    Elizabethan Churchman Active Member

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    Yes, and we constantly plot the counter-revolution and the restoration of the Crown! :wicked:Or maybe we just derive pleasure from occasionally revealing our loyalties when we have the opportunity...

    I would think a Loyalist beyond the American Revolution makes sense in the American context, especially if you consider the United States to be the "prodigal son," so to speak, of the British Empire. There has always been a segment of the American population, even ones that would support the Revolution, that have thought we should generally be aligned with Britain in foreign affairs for the mere reason that they are our Mother Country. I can't think of a better word than Loyalist to describe this general attitude.

    Royalism/Loyalism/Toryism, whatever you want to call it, is surprisingly resilient in the American Public. According to a poll prior to the Royal Wedding, 18% of Americans wanted a monarchy in America. It's a rare polling point, but it usually runs about that ratio. That would probably translate into approximately the ratio of people who have Loyalist ancestors. Distrust of politicians runs deep, and so does respect for royalty.

    Edit: As far as distinctions between Royalism, Loyalism, and Monarchism: Monarchism usually refers to aligning with the theory of monarchy. A Royalist support the traditional Royal House of whatever country you are in. A Loyalist can be totally unrelated, since it can refer to being loyal to a republican government in certain circumstances. It usually refers to the opponents of independence of a colony or a section of a country.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  13. The Hackney Hub

    The Hackney Hub Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting there was around 18% support for monarchy in the States. This does correspond to the figures I've seen for the Loyalist cause in the Revolution, about 20-25% Loyalist, 20-25% Patriot, and the rest ambivalent or apathetic.
     
  14. Elizabethan Churchman

    Elizabethan Churchman Active Member

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    I think about 2/3 Americans have ancestors who came before the Revolution, so about a fifth to a third of those should have Loyalist ancestors. The percentage is probably also bolstered by waves of Royalist emigres moving to the United States due to various European revolutions, possibly some post-Revolution British immigration as well. Personally, my Toryism derives from my paternal family being Russian Tsarist emigres combined with my mother being from a family of mostly British ancestry and legitimately embracing the philosophy behind monarchism.

    Edit: Also, a lot of the fence-sitters were default loyalists. Rebel-controlled country was dangerous for known, or even suspected, Tories. That was most of the country for most of the war.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  15. Pecanpie

    Pecanpie New Member

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    Makes sense. In that case I am a Royalist and a Loyalist!

    I should probably socialize with others of this orientation, perhaps? We can all have coffee, cookies, and do some plotting! :cool:
     
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  16. Spherelink

    Spherelink Active Member

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    Love that avatar Pecan :D Which tavern are we meeting in? Of course no one will be allowed to order any Sam adams..
     
  17. Elizabethan Churchman

    Elizabethan Churchman Active Member

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    I would to suggest this one in the Bay Area, CA: Duke of Edinburgh Pub and Restaurant ( http://www.theduke.com/). :cheers: I miss the British pubs where I grew up in California. For some reason, there haven't been many in places I've lived since then. That one was particularly good.
     
  18. Pecanpie

    Pecanpie New Member

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    Thanks. I hope you don't mind that I've changed it to St. George.

    "Can a get a Boston lager here please, preferably not Sam Adams?"