Supreme Court ends Roe v. Wade?

Discussion in 'Anglican and Christian News' started by Lowly Layman, May 2, 2022.

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  1. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    They say, a text without a context is a con. It seems clear that @Tiffy was trying to make a very specific point. I think it’s going to take a little bit more than a couple of bare quotations, with no commentary at all, for your response, whatever it is, to be clear. It is always incumbent upon the reader to put the best construction possible upon what is being said. Errors of interpretation, when they occur, are the fault of the reader, not the writer. It seems clear that @Tiffy was referring to the visible Church, not the invisible Church. There are people on earth now who are not members of either, but will be in heaven.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
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  2. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Cossack dancing knee jerk reactions bringing the texts out here I see, and all good texts they are too. Jesus Christ is of course GOD and therefore how could there be salvation in anyone else?

    But that salvation applies to all that fulfil the critera laid down by Christ, not just the pronouncements and gatekeeping of priests and prelates of the Christian Churches or the vainglorious imaginations of puritanical doctrine lawyers. Without a love and respect for TRUTH, a disciplined following of the WAY of love and a profound respect for LIFE, the gift of God to His Creation, there is no prospect of 'Salvation' because rejection of all or any of these is a rejection of GOD. The most profound rejection of them is the rejection of the atoning act of Jesus Christ, being the only available route to salvation and being effective for all mankind who do not actively and deliberately reject it.
    .
     
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  3. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    A rather odd statement for one who professes the Anglican faith, but you do you, Tiffy.

    1 Tim. 2:5-6: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."

    2 Thess. 1:5-10: "This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed."

    Rom. 10:8-13: But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
     
  4. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Again, a few isolated passages quoted with no context doesn’t really tell us much.
     
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  5. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Please do explain the context to me -- I'd love to hear your take on it.
     
  6. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that very much. :laugh: You’re the one who quoted them. I’m just asking how you think they relate to what @Tiffy was saying, which is something only you can know and no commentary can help reveal. I honestly don’t know what your specific objection is. Is it really that difficult to provide an explanation in good faith? :dunno: I don’t really think I’m asking for anything unreasonable here…
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
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  7. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It is my mistake, I confess; I assumed you already knew the Gospel.

    Let us begin: Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, who is the only begotten son of God from eternity, was incarnated and made man; he lived without sin after being born of a virgin girl named Mary by the Holy Spirit, and was sacrificed upon the cross to expiate the sins of the elect; he was buried; he was raised and ascended to heaven as King of Creation, and now sits at the right hand of the Father till he shall return to cast down Satan, and judge all the living and the dead. Those judged righteous will reside with their Lord and King Jesus in the remade Heaven and Earth for eternity; those whose name is not found in the book of life will be cast into Hell, forever separated from God (Rev. 20:15).

    Jesus Christ is the one and only way to salvation (John 10:7-10). Those who do not proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are not saved, and will not enter into the New Jerusalem (Rom. 10:13). No one is saved by works, but by faith in Christ alone. Our deeds are the outworkings of a saving faith; by themselves, the works mean nothing. (Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. ") Works without faith in Christ are useless. A faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

    If Christ is not the sole and only way to salvation, if all could be saved without faith in Jesus Christ as the only Lord and King, then there would be no need for Jesus to be incarnate as a human man, no reason for the crucifixion (why atone for the sins of the elect if all will be saved in any case?), no need for the resurrection, and no need for Christ's judgement on his return.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  8. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    And having covered the Gospel, let me continue with one last Bible passage from Matt. 12:30: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." These are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    You cannot claim to be a Christ follower unless you follow him, and obey his commands. And the church invisible is one all saints join upon confessing Christ, but we are called also to be part of the church visible -- we are called to worship corporately (Hebrews 10:24-25). You cannot live a Christian life if you do not worship with other Christians. Time and circumstances may prevent us from attending services periodically, but a Christian who never attends corporate church services nor takes part in the sacraments (baptism and the Lord's supper) is not living a Christian life.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  9. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Wow. Are all ACNA members this smug and sanctimonious, or just the ones on this forum? For the record, I was actually asking for a serious answer, in good faith; I don’t need any sarcasm. And yes, I’m quite familiar with the Gospel (all four of them, actually). :thumbsup:

    What you wrote has literally nothing to do with what @Tiffy actually said, so to avoid any further waste of my time, I’ll have to be content with the conclusion that you don’t actually have any intention of conversing seriously about it. :wallbash:
     
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  10. Ananias

    Ananias Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I think I found the passage in Tiffy's post that is giving Invictus heartburn, so let me respond specifically to that:

    Romans 1:20: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

    We can argue about those who died before Christ came, or infants who die in their innocence; Christ is their judge, and will judge them justly. But those who came after Christ have no excuse at all for their unbelief.

    And on that note I'll leave it. I've taken this thread far too off-track already.
     
  11. Annie Grace

    Annie Grace Well-Known Member

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    Wow - the ACNA sounds a lot like the RCC to me and having recently jumped ship from that unyielding and dogmatic church, I have no desire to even go near the ACNA. Thank God (literally) that the Anglican Church is bigger than one branch and there is a place for someone like me, who just wants to know Jesus and the love of God, and not judge and condemn everyone else. Whew, hot forum!
     
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  12. Dave Kemp

    Dave Kemp Member Anglican

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    You’d happily continue abortion right up to the moment of birth? God help you.
     
  13. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Ananias for proving my point by quoting the essential truth contained in Romans 1:20.

    All assaults upon God by humankind all involve opposition and antagonism to (1) Life, (2) God's 'Ways' and, (3) Suppression of 'Truth'.

    It would however be a mistake to assume that ALL human beings are equally opposed to these three things and therefore all human beings, (apart from us Christians), are equally and absolutely opposed to God, merely by not belonging to the belief system that we have chosen to espouse, namely Christianity, or even in extremity, for not being sufficiently Anglican. If that assumption of universal guilt of others outside of our particular religion and denomination could be successfully ' shaken off ' like a dog shakes off water, then 'smug' and 'sanctimonious' would become inappropriate descriptions of the right theological perspective on the matter.

    None of us have any excuse at all for our human condition or anything about it, including our predisposition to sin. Those who died before Christ came are equally recipients of God's Grace and Atonement as expressed in the death of God's Only Son at the given point in time, as are those who died after it. It is only your understanding of scripture which might be convincing you otherwise.

    Infants who die in their 'innocence' have not yet committed any of the 'ungodlinesses' or 'unrighteousnesses' common to mankind, neither have they 'suppressed the truth' in any way. Therefore why should God, according to the criteria Paul has mentioned, be in any way wrathfully disposed toward them? Why should they come under any judgment at all, surely they are also equally covered by the Gracious Atonement of Christ for the sins of the whole world, are they not?

    If you think they are not then, once again, that is merely the way you understand scripture that is leading you to such a conclusion.

    In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet. 4:8.
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    Last edited: May 12, 2022
  14. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    No such help is needed in this case, since I never said that or anything remotely close to it. I have in fact said the exact opposite, viz., that late-term abortions ought to have a really good reason in order to be permissible (and in general, they do). Reading comprehension is in extremely short supply in this thread, apparently. :doh:

    The whole point of my argument throughout this thread has been about letting the Judeo-Christian tradition, not the contemporary political environment, dictate the parameters of how we approach the issue, so that the Christian message does not get mixed up with extremist and inflammatory rhetoric with no biblical basis, which in turn has the potential to not only rob people of personal liberty and cause unnecessary deaths but also to incite actual violence against dissenters.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
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  15. Admin

    Admin Administrator Staff Member Typist Anglican

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    Ok. Let’s pause the thread until there are new developments in the news. Nothing constructive can be achieved for now.
     
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