I’ve seen an argument used from revelation that the Saints present a bowl of incense to the Lamb. So they sort of “present” our prayers to God. Is this interpretation in line with Anglican teaching? What I am having trouble reconciling this with is that all prayers are for God and presented to God, not to the Saints. So saying “Mary pray for us sinners,” would Mary receive those prayers? When you pray (just an example) “Mary pray so I may do well on my exam,” does God hear your prayer and answer it even though it’s directed to Mary? Or does Mary actually receive the prayer from the bowl and present it to God in the way of “praying” for you?? I’ve seen some anglicans on here saying they ask the Saints to pray for them. That the articles prohibit “invocation” of the Saints but not prayer to them. Is this true?
This is a typically Anglican answer, but it depends on who you ask. The Church of England was one with the rest of the Reformation in emphasizing Christ's role as sole mediator. Thus, there are no invocations of, or prayers directed to, the saints in the public liturgy (though individual saints' feast days were retained in the Church's calendar). Anglicanism in post-colonial America went slightly further than the mother Church in this regard (e.g., removing the references to the three children by name in the Benedicite canticle at Matins). In the wake of Tractarianism, however, some Anglicans adopted the distinction between (1) seeking the saints' aid as though the saints had power of their own to render it, and (2) invocations merely being expressions (and poetic expansions) of the belief that the saints pray for us. This is actually a standard distinction one encounters in Roman Catholic theology, which the Tractarians then borrowed. So, there are some Anglicans who pray the Dominican Rosary, for example. To sum up, there are some Anglicans who see it as legitimate (within certain limits), and others who do not. This state of affairs is widely considered to be acceptable as long as there is agreement regarding the liturgy and Christ's sole mediatorship.
I don’t pray or even see the need to pray to the saints. God is more than plenty enough for me. I genuinely and sincerely don’t understand the people who need someone else other than God.
I've always understood the "praying to the saints" thing to be forbidden in the Old Testament (Deut. 18:11) and the New Testament (1 Timothy 2:5). Christ is our only intercessor; it is through Him that we pray. Those who have fallen asleep in the Lord have not yet been judged, and hence cannot intercede for others. I'm not even sure those spirits who have passed on have any agency or awareness as such; their souls abide through the ages by the grace of Christ (how we do not know exactly) and they will be raised bodily on the Day of the Lord to be judged by Christ the King. I don't see praying to the saints as being wrong, per se, so much as pointless. It is casting words into the void, unheard. I think that's why many Protestants equate the practice with idolatry (particularly when prayers are performed in front of icons or carved figures).
Well, if it’s pointless it’s not idolatry then? I don’t really think it’s idolatry, I just think that it’s kind of pointless. But I have to wonder how that fits in with revelation. Would God accept the prayers even if they’re not directed to him? Idk….
So you’re saying the Catholics believe in invocation, and not that the Saints have power on their own? This may be true in modern RCC, but the medieval church certainly had a lot of superstition and believed the Saints had power. I mean, what do you call those prayers said to this day asking “Mary keep us from danger?” A modern RC will probably say you’re asking Mary to pray you be kept from danger. But in the medieval period they believed Mary (or any saint) had the actual power. And also, they pray specific prayers to certain Saints, like st Anthony for lost keys. Again, modern RCs will say it’s not the power of the saint but of God. But even though they intellectually may say this, in practice, that’s not probably what’s happening.
Pretty much. That was Cardinal Bellarmine’s explanation in any case. Lancelot Andrewes thought it was disingenuous. You’d have to consult the Catechism or Denzinger for a more precise formulation. Even though plenty of people in the Middle Ages (and plenty of people today) had (have) some very extravagant notions of what the saints can accomplish, that doesn’t mean that such beliefs were (are) necessarily at one with official teaching. What the Church teaches and what the Church believes don’t always line up exactly.
I guess a distinction needs to be made between Roman practices and what their practices cause their believers to believe. Officially they aren't praying to statues or icons, but their practice certainly lends itself to idolatry (especially among those who don't understand their nuances).
They might but: Jesus implied that we have direct access to The Father, through Christ's Atonement. Matt.6:9-14. John 20:17. What necessity therefore is there to consult or implore layers of 'go betweens' when making our requests known to God? Phil.4:6. The saints are not our Advocate in heaven, Christ is. 1 John 2:1-2. The saints in heaven are like the saints on earth, interested in our welfare because they love the brethren. 1 Thes.4:9. .
The closest hint to this practice in our public liturgy is at the beginning of the communion prayers. The priest says "Therefore we praise you, with Angels and Archangels and with all the company of heaven, who forever sing this hymn to the glory of your Name." So amidst the careful arguments described above concerning the degree to which we may or may not ask the saints to pray "for" us, we do assent to the biblical truth that that the saints do pray "with" us. Bringing this back to the imagery in Revelation, it could well be that their offering of prayers as bowls of incense is simply the unity of praise/worship in heaven and on earth. Or perhaps it could be something a little more interactive, wherein they actively pray for us and/or we actively invite them to pray for/with us. Either way it's a beautiful mystery.
"And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God". What this says is that the saints of old await eagerly to reach perfection because as yet we on earth are not all in Christ along with them. When we are all together in Christ we shall all be perfected. .