What exactly is heresy? - And which denominations do you see as heretic?

Discussion in 'Questions?' started by Silvan, Jul 18, 2021.

  1. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    I don’t consider Roman Catholicism to be heretical. It’s not clear to me on what basis they could be, if the standard is the first five centuries.
     
  2. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I mean I’m not here calling all of Roman Catholicism entirely heretical, but by comparison to the first five centuries, it suffers grievously as a caricature of a Church:

    -elevating and adoring the sacrament (Polycarp and Lactantius would have a word with them on this)
    -creating new sacraments by papal fiat (the Didache, St Ambrose would go to war about this)
    -carving and painting images of Jesus and Mary (St Chrysosthom is not amused)
    -making adorations toward the said carvings & paintings (S Epiphanius and St Augustine would curse them for this alone)
    -allowing something to add to the revelation of the most holy Scripture (St Athanasius would go apoplectic on this one)
    -making our works be a criterion of justification (St Clement rolls over in his grave)
    -making the Bishop of Rome have the immediate and supreme pastor of every Christian on earth (Council of Nicea isn’t amused; St Cyprian went scorched earth because of this)
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
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  3. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    We in New Zealand had a famous heresy trial in 1967. Professor Lloyd Geering (NZ's most famous theologian) was charged with "Doctinal Error and disturbing the peace and unity of the (Presbyterian) church"(maybe that is what heresy is). Of course the news media called it a heresy trial as that sounds so much more sexy than Doctrinal Error. During his church trial, he claimed that the remains of Jesus lay somewhere in Palestine and that the resurrection had been wrongfully interpreted by churches as a resuscitation of the body of Jesus. He also rejects the notion that God is a supernatural being who created and continues to look over the world. Geering is also a member of the Jesus Seminar and disbelieves in an after life.
    Now I suspect with these credentials there is a slight possibilty that some here may agree he is a heritic, but never the less he was aquitted. Maybe because of his disbelief in an afterlife he is making the most of this life, he is now 103 and still going strong.
     
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  4. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    Sad. We had a similar heretic here in the US, "bishop" John Shelby Spong, one of the leaders of the heretical wing of the Episcopal Church in the 80s and 90s. He was a founding member of the Jesus Seminar, and preached similar content to your guy down under, here in the US all over the Episcopal Church, converting more and more people to his view. He is on his deathbed now, and I have no doubt that saving repentance he will go directly to hell, and curse the day he was born, every moment dying an everlasting death from the worm that dieth not. Back then he was still an exception. Today, he isn't:

    Screen Shot 2021-07-19 at 9.50.24 PM.png

    Screen Shot 2021-07-19 at 9.57.38 PM.png

    Anyone who's a Christian will have no doubts about whether hell and heresy still exists, after looking at those titles and those pictures.
     
  5. Botolph

    Botolph Well-Known Member

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    I have been trying to avoid weighing in on this thread, but there you go.

    Heresy is that which is divergent from orthodox belief. Often Heresy happens as a result of excessive emphasis on one part of the story of salvation above others. The Kenotic Christology expressed in Philippians 2:7 can suffer overemphasis leading to Adoptionism or its close cousin Spanish Adoptionism. Another example is where Arius took the term Son, and then built a cases that there was time that the Son was not, suggesting that Jesus was everlasting, rather than eternal.

    The important thing to remember is that a heretic is a Christian. For the first 100 years or so Islam was seen by many in the west as a new form of Arianism, so essentially heresy, until it became apparent that it was indeed a different religion altogether and not Christian, so not Heresy, just a different religion.

    And I think it is always crucial when considering heresy, which I believe should be avoided where possible, to remember that we are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, not by the purity of our own doctrinal position (which of course would amount to salvation by works)
     
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  6. Silvan

    Silvan Active Member

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    I read it now!

    Very interesting! :)
     
  7. Tiffy

    Tiffy Well-Known Member

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    Back sometime during my training I attended a lecture by John Selby Spong along with my wife. We did not hear anything on that occasion which could be construed as overtly heretical from him.

    For instance he was adamant that Jesus Christ was not born in a stable, there may not have been oxen or asses present, he may not have literally walked on water etc. Some claims were obviously true, (there was probably no livestock barn anywhere in Bethlehem, and the Bible does not say Jesus was born in the barn of an inn, only that he was laid in a manger because there was no room in the guest room. Syncretic 'Christianity', (and most of it is), does not just have a patena of accumulated nonsense obscuring the truth of the Gospel but is littered with a positive heap of possible misconceptions only some of which were eradicated at the Reformation. For some religious people, even questioning their assumptions is thought by them to be heretical behaviour in others.

    Some have become so embedded in church tradition that the amputation of these ideas would be quite traumatic to many 'believers' in the church. (Men only ministry, and God being 'male', possibly being only two of them). Fortunately however most of these misconceptions are fairly innocuous. I mean; what does it really matter whether Jesus was born in a cattle shed at back of a pub because his mum and dad couldn't get a room, or in the basement of a relative's house in Bethlehem, usually used to house the family's livestock.

    On the other hand, if someone claiming to have authority in the Church teaches that there is no resurection from the dead and no forgivness of sins by faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ, who died 'once and for all', they should not be surprised or offended if the Church of Jesus Christ rejects them as a heretic and condemns their teaching as heretical and the 'doctrines of demons'.

    Some people who scream heresy scream too soon and for reasons of their own ignorance rather than that the true Christian faith has been violated by false teaching from an unbelieving 'believer' pretending to be a servant of Christ, potentially robbing others of the wholesome message of The Gospel of Salvation.

    If 'Robbing others of the Salvation afforded them from hearing The Gospel', became the definition of heresy, I guess there might be quite a few literal fundamentalist, young earth, biblical infallibility fanatics, who might be considered peddlers of at least some heretical nonsense.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  8. Silvan

    Silvan Active Member

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    Who said that the Catholics are heretical?
    I only know this opinion from some very fanatical fundamentalists on another forum.

    I am quite critical of the RCC myself.
    But I find it offensive and rude and un-Christian to maintain that Catholics are no Christians.
    This opinion seems to be very wide-spread in the "Bible Belt" in the USA.
     
  9. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    I went to school with a girl who was a JW. She was always proselytising. According to her a member of her congregation had the mark and knew he was one of the 144,000 going to heaven.
     
  10. ZachT

    ZachT Well-Known Member

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    A heretic is a Christian. They're just not an orthodox one.
     
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  11. Thomist Anglican

    Thomist Anglican Member Anglican

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    Yeah I was very similar in talking to quite a few people about it in school and after. The idea that one "knows" their "anointed" is just so silly. In fact, there was an article that the Watchtower wrote a few years back that mentioned how more and more people are claiming to be of the 144,000. It said that a reason for this could be "mental illness". The leaders of that cultic organization know that since the time of the Apostles that more than 144,000 people have been JW's and have believed they are going to heaven. So they have to basically call all the new ones that are claiming this mentally ill. Ridiculous!
     
  12. Legion

    Legion Member

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    No idea, and none.

    I am far more interested in whether people prefer tea or coffee, cheese or fruit scones.
     
  13. CRfromQld

    CRfromQld Moderator Staff Member

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    I think this sums up what heresy is.

    Galations 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed!

    This probably includes progressive Christians.
     
  14. Invictus

    Invictus Well-Known Member

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    Here is the official Roman Catholic definition:
    The word "heresy" doesn't occur in the current Canons of the Church of England, nor does it occur in the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church. In a way this makes sense: since Anglicanism neither represents the whole Church nor makes any claim to do so - contrary to Rome - one could make the case that neither the Church of England, nor any individual Anglican Province, nor the Anglican Communion as a whole, can or should define "heresy" (at least not any new heresy).
     
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  15. AnglicanAgnostic

    AnglicanAgnostic Well-Known Member

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    Hi invictus when I click on your Canons of the Church of England link my AVG (anti virus) says aborted connection to www.webcitation
    infected with URL:BLACKLIST. I have funny feeling I've come across this before independant of your link, so it might just be a problem with my software. does anyone else have a problem?
     
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  16. Annie Grace

    Annie Grace Well-Known Member

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    The above is one of the reasons I am not RC any more - too much legalising of religion and claiming special status above other Christians. I go more along with what @Invictus posted about heresy (see below).

     
  17. PDL

    PDL Well-Known Member Anglican

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    It sounds to me as if your antivirus software thinks that WebCite is a malicious website. It is not and the pdf from the C of E opened for me.
     
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  18. Stalwart

    Stalwart Well-Known Member Anglican

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    The Encyclopedia Britannica is pretty good on this question.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/heresy

     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021